90- How to Handle the “Would Be” Days
In this podcast episode, we delve into a profound topic that many of us encounter on our grief journey – how to navigate the emotions surrounding the “would have been” moments. Join hosts Michelle Bader Ebersole and Mark Massaro as they share their personal experiences and insights on handling days that hold special significance, like anniversaries and birthdays.
In this touching conversation:
- Explore the concept of “would have been” days and how they impact our grief.
- Gain valuable strategies for managing the anniversary of a loved one’s passing and other significant days.
- Learn the importance of allowing yourself to feel and embracing the range of emotions that come with these moments.
- Discover ways to honor your loved one’s memory, from simple acts to meaningful rituals.
- Hear heartfelt stories of celebrating and remembering loved ones with humor, authenticity, and love.
While everyone’s journey is unique, this discussion aims to offer comfort, guidance, and understanding to those navigating the intricate terrain of grief. If you’ve ever wondered how to commemorate “would have been” days or simply want to connect with others who’ve experienced similar feelings, this episode is for you.
If you have been touched by this podcast, please consider donating to the non-profit we are under, Widow Goals. In addition to this podcast, Widow Goals provides Grief Recovery Classes, Social Media support, resources, and local and soon-to-be national events. You can give tax-free here; thank you!
Click here to get a free copy of Chapter 1 of our upcoming book, Widowed 2 Soon!
Link to Michelle’s Books, Widow Checklist, and More
Follow us on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/widowed2soon_/
https://www.instagram.com/widowgoals
Subscribe to our YouTube Channel
Email us [email protected]
—
Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/widowed2soon/message
Mark Massaro:
Hey, welcome to Widow Too Soon. This is Mark Massaro. I’m here with my friend and co-host, Michelle Bader Ebersole.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Congratulations for saying
Mark Massaro:
Thank you.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it correctly.
Mark Massaro:
I like saying it now, cause I’m all smart, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Great.
Mark Massaro:
So I wanna ask, first I’m gonna just ask, how’s it going?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
Mark Massaro:
So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Good.
Mark Massaro:
just, good. Okay, good. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Great.
Mark Massaro:
I wanna tell you what’s been up with me
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah,
Mark Massaro:
first,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you wanted to
Mark Massaro:
if
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
go
Mark Massaro:
that’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
first.
Mark Massaro:
okay.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes,
Mark Massaro:
Um,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes.
Mark Massaro:
so I have been, um, backpacking through the Amazonian rainforest.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No, you haven’t.
Mark Massaro:
Um, yes.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I
Mark Massaro:
And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
would have
Mark Massaro:
I,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
seen pictures. You would have posted that.
Mark Massaro:
and I went to Columbia and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh-huh.
Mark Massaro:
I skydived.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You run a marathon?
Mark Massaro:
I,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh-huh.
Mark Massaro:
yeah, I ran a marathon. Um, it was like, well, it wasn’t just a marathon. It was three back to back marathons in
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
a row.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right, uh-huh,
Mark Massaro:
So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m
Mark Massaro:
26.2
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sure, right.
Mark Massaro:
miles each day.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
Um. So, you know, I just had to go first to get all my adventurous stuff out of the way so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
that, you know, show me up. I wrestled a bear.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good job.
Mark Massaro:
That was cool. I won. So that was cool. Anyways,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Good
Mark Massaro:
no,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
stuff.
Mark Massaro:
I didn’t do any of that. So, but I will tell you what I did, but it’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I think it
Mark Massaro:
significantly
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was
Mark Massaro:
less
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
exciting.
Mark Massaro:
exciting in some ways than what you’ve done. One thing I did do that was super exciting was I got to hang out with Tina. She
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
came
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s
Mark Massaro:
and visited
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
always the best.
Mark Massaro:
and yes, we had a great time and I took her to Cades Cove. It’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What’s
Mark Massaro:
like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that?
Mark Massaro:
a 12 mile loop through the Smoky Mountains.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Did you run it?
Mark Massaro:
No, we drove like a bunch of lazy
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
people.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
okay. That’s still
Mark Massaro:
But
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good.
Mark Massaro:
it’s cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No, it sounds
Mark Massaro:
There’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
cool. Oh, okay. That’s still good.
Mark Massaro:
like a church that’s been there since the 1700s and obviously it’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice.
Mark Massaro:
not still in use, but you can walk into the building and see the pews and the pulpit. And I’m like, whoa, this is crazy. Like people were hearing sermons here in like the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s
Mark Massaro:
1700s.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
cool.
Mark Massaro:
So that’s kind of, we didn’t actually do that. I’ve done it before, but we didn’t do it this time.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
We just drove through and I still haven’t seen bears there. Everybody swears
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
there’s bears there. I haven’t seen them. It’s probably just I’m going at the wrong time of year. So anyways, that was really cool. I’ve had some hard stuff going on. It was, you know, like I talked about last time I was on, was it was three years since Lacey went to heaven on August 13th. So it’s been a while since I’ve recorded
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
because I remember
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah,
Mark Massaro:
saying when we recorded,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it was coming
Mark Massaro:
I remember
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
up.
Mark Massaro:
saying it’s going to be tomorrow.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, right.
Mark Massaro:
But now tomorrow is Lacey’s birthday.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow, two big
Mark Massaro:
She
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
days
Mark Massaro:
would have been
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
in
Mark Massaro:
38.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a row.
Mark Massaro:
So yeah, August is kind of a sucky month to be honest.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
It’s just, I don’t know, years are different than other years. You know, we’ve talked about grief is weird. It really is.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
But you know, I still have a lot to be thankful for. And, um, but those days were hard and that’s okay to talk about. I’ve, I’ve shed several tears over the month of
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
August. Um, you know, remembering what Lacey went through and obviously also what I went through and, um, it’s, you know, it’s just been, it’s been kind of tough. Um, I’ve been, uh, working a lot. Like, you know, trying to work a lot, I should say, trying to, to plug away and figure stuff out. So that’s been.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
It’s been encouraging somewhat. I had something happen that was a huge bummer.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Aww.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, I had a potential big sale and they were not getting my emails for some reason
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh no.
Mark Massaro:
and I was trying everything. I was frantic. I was going back in, going through all selecting all the listings again, sending them again, sending it to several different email addresses and one of the things I sent I said, hey so did you get it this time? I didn’t get a response for like 15, 20 minutes and then they sent a response back and said, nevermind, we’re gonna go with somebody else.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
I was like, oh, like I felt so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
such
Mark Massaro:
stupid.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a bummer.
Mark Massaro:
I don’t think I did anything wrong and Tina was really encouraging me that I didn’t do anything wrong. My mother-in-law was telling
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
me I didn’t do anything wrong but it just
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sure
Mark Massaro:
felt
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you didn’t.
Mark Massaro:
like embarrassing, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
It was just like, no, please, like don’t, no, give me your sale, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
But so anyways, that’s, you know. There’s been some random stuff going on. I’ve got some stuff coming up at the kids school. Luke got an award
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, what for?
Mark Massaro:
for class leader. And so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Aww,
Mark Massaro:
they pick
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sweet.
Mark Massaro:
one leader from every classroom in the school and Luke got it. And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s awesome.
Mark Massaro:
I’m so excited.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I could see
Mark Massaro:
And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that.
Mark Massaro:
it came with like a personalized note from his teacher and that she was so proud of him. And it was just awesome. It was awesome. And I’m so proud of him. So, you know, I made sure to lift him up high in the air and express to him how proud of him I was.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Aw.
Mark Massaro:
And he’s, it was really cute. He’s like, you know, I’m proud of myself too.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, I
Mark Massaro:
And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
love
Mark Massaro:
I was like,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it.
Mark Massaro:
good job, buddy, you should
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
be. And so, so on Thursday, it’s like, it’s like grandparents day. And last year they didn’t do a very good job of, you know, it said like grandparents day. And I was like, well,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
then nobody’s coming because their grandparents, and I know their grandparents. Probably would have flown out here, but I wasn’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
gonna
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
if
Mark Massaro:
ask
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
they
Mark Massaro:
him
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
knew
Mark Massaro:
to do
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
about
Mark Massaro:
that,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it, yeah.
Mark Massaro:
but it was short notice. And so nobody showed up for my kids last year because
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
it was advertised as grandparents. Well, now this year they advertise that it’s or any loved ones.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh good.
Mark Massaro:
And I was like, cool, so I’m gonna be grandpa.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
So I get to go have lunch with Luke at school.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice.
Mark Massaro:
And then he had the option of whether he wanted to be dismissed after and go home with me. or if he wanted to do the rest of the day. And he’s like, I wanna come home with you, so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
we’re gonna have a little
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
hard choice.
Mark Massaro:
boys day, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice.
Mark Massaro:
So I’m gonna take him to give him a little reward for his award.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s awesome.
Mark Massaro:
And then tomorrow, this is the last thing, tomorrow we are going out to have ice cream
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm,
Mark Massaro:
in celebration of Lacey,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes.
Mark Massaro:
because that’s what she would have wanted,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right,
Mark Massaro:
was ice cream.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
hmm,
Mark Massaro:
So anyways, so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sweet.
Mark Massaro:
that’s what’s been up with me. So tell me about all the countries you’ve backpacked across or
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I have not
Mark Massaro:
the bungee
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
done
Mark Massaro:
jumping
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that.
Mark Massaro:
you’ve done.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh my goodness. Well, there is a lot this time, but I’ll try to keep it short and sweet. Um, I got it written down in chronological order. Some of
Mark Massaro:
Nice.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it, um, we went to Boston to visit Joel’s family, his parents, and all four of his siblings and their kids. Everybody lives there. So Joel’s the only one. It’s kind of like how my whole family lives here. like within a couple miles. His whole family is within a couple miles. So it was very fun. Like it was back to back family events. Like literally before we got there, we had an entire agenda of what we were going to do. But it was really, really fun. He had an aunt and uncle and another two aunts and then an uncle who came out for a birthday party. They were celebrating her 70th birthday. So we did that. We had a pool party. It was just a lot of fun. It’s my second time out there. Last time I went, I was just his girlfriend. We weren’t even engaged yet. So it was a completely different experience this time, being his wife and they know I’m committed. I am part of the family now.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And it was a lot of fun. Boston’s beautiful. We went to the Harvard campus to look
Mark Massaro:
Oh
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
around.
Mark Massaro:
wow.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, last year we had done downtown Boston, so we didn’t do tons of tourist things. There was this really cool place called Rockport. It’s where they filmed the proposal. Have you seen the proposal with Sandra Bullock? Like. 2000 ish 2000 somewhere in there.
Mark Massaro:
Is
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And like,
Mark Massaro:
it Ryan Reynolds also?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes, I think so. And she has to like,
Mark Massaro:
Okay
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
stay in the country. I don’t know, we’re gonna watch it because we just watched it. I watched it years ago, but we want to watch it because we just went to Rockport and want to
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
see
Mark Massaro:
don’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
all
Mark Massaro:
think
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the
Mark Massaro:
I’ve
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
places
Mark Massaro:
seen it, I think I just remember seeing the movie cover.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes, well, good memory. Anyways, that was filmed there. That was cool. So Boston was like for six days. Um, so that was good. And then we had like just a couple of days. And so we had to train while we were there, um, to do this thing. It’s actually really famous. It’s called the hood to coast relay. You start at Mount hood in Portland, like above Portland, all the way to seaside at the beach. So it’s 197 miles and you’re on a team of 12. There’s two vans and there’s runners one through six and then seven through 12. Joel was 11. I was 12. I chose to be the last one, which is some good things, some not great things. But you’re basically like, they started on the top of the mountain. And we met them a little ways away from that in the afternoon. And then so you have your runner seven goes first. And then you go to the next spot, wait for them. Then your runner eight, and so on. And I was number 12. So my first run was like 5 PM or something. I did great. I mean, for me, 10 minute miles are good. I’m not like super fast. I did great 10 minute miles. It was awesome. But I actually had grief on my run. It was so weird. I didn’t know the route was gonna go by this amusement park called Oaks Park, which Luke
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
grew up going there. And then we would go there for family reunions and picnics every year, and I hadn’t seen it since then. And so all of a sudden I’m like, oh my gosh, I’m at Oaks Park, so I took a couple pictures to show the kids, guess where I’m running by, and his mom, Luke’s mom, I sent it to her too. And I just kind of just started crying a little bit while I was running. And then I had like… I was listening to podcasts. I got tired of that. Change it to like this old, like an old playlist. And it had songs that reminded me of Luke. I was like crying while I was running. It was, it was a strange thing. Grief is weird. Um,
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
but what’s so great is I knew that Joel would listen to me and let me talk about it, which he did when I was done with my run, like, Whoa, that was weird. I had grief. I also had grief. Okay. So let me tell you this. So you, you do your run and then we pass it off to the next van. And then we have like six hours till our next run. Um, and it was like 7 or 8 o’clock. So we had to like 2 in the morning. We had a hotel, but they gave our room to someone else. Like we were just going to use it for everyone to take showers and rest and all of that stuff. But they gave it away. We got an Airbnb. Somebody knew somebody. It was only for like three hours. I could not fall asleep. So I had no
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sleep. And then my run wasn’t until about 5 or 6 in the morning. And so I was awake that whole time while the other runners were going. And then my second run, I just had no gas. Like with no sleep. Like I had to run 4.0. 5 or something, 4.8. I don’t know, close to 5. And I just had no gas in the tank. But then the third run, so then after that race, I got to sleep in a tent for two hours on a field. So I had two hours of sleep. And then I ran my third run, and it was five miles. And I got to end the race on the beach. You go onto the beach, and your team joins you, and you all cross the finish line together. And
Mark Massaro:
Oh,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so
Mark Massaro:
that’s cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it was cool. We didn’t know the people in our van, so we got to do all new people. And it was just a great experience for Joel and I to have together. like in the middle of it, you’re like, what am I doing? Like I’m running on no sleep, literally,
Mark Massaro:
Hehehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
literally running on no sleep. So that was, that was interesting. It’s my third time doing it. It was Joel’s first time. And like the night we got home, we were so tired and he’s like, I don’t ever wanna do it again. And then the next day he’s like, we could do that again.
Mark Massaro:
Heheheheheheh
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You know, you forget how bad it is. So that’s something fun. I love running, but running with no sleep, I don’t love so much. I’m not so good. The last time
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I
Mark Massaro:
just
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
did it
Mark Massaro:
have
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was, okay.
Mark Massaro:
to ask, did you listen to Eye of the Tiger in your headphones?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No, I should have
Mark Massaro:
Oh, that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
though.
Mark Massaro:
would
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’d
Mark Massaro:
have
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
be
Mark Massaro:
fueled
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a great
Mark Massaro:
you.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one It totally
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
would have is mostly listening to podcasts because it just keeps my mind like busy
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I used to just do
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
music
Mark Massaro:
could see
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
now.
Mark Massaro:
that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m like listening to things to make me think of other things So that was interesting and then oh, let me back it up This isn’t chronological order in between Boston and Hood to Coast was what would have been my 20 year anniversary with Luke and so a couple things were different about that one being like, I’m married now. Like this is my first time being married again. So it was a very strange feeling. But Joel was so great, like the whole day, like, is there anything I can do for you? How are you feeling right now? Like just giving me space to feel whatever I need to feel. Um, I went to, to the grave and talked to Luke in quotes. I know he can’t hear me. I do the whole thing. God, please relay this to Luke. And I was just basically just telling him about the kids and telling him about Joel and, um, that he’s taking care of us and, but it was a strange day. Also, it was just so strange, like 20, that’s a big one. Like
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
we would have been married 20 years and it’s almost like, it’s not embarrassing, but it feels weird. Joel and I have talked about this with people like, hey, how long have you guys been married? They assume we’ve been married like 20 years because we are
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
in that age bracket and we’re like five months. Like, oh really? It’s just like, it kind of feels weird. But anyways, so that was one of the things. that happened is I went there and talked to the kids a little bit about it, but they, it also was the first year that I didn’t involve the kids in it. Like on our anniversary, anniversaries before we would say this is like our family anniversary, because this is the anniversary when our family started, but this year because I was married again, it was different. They didn’t really participate in it. It was more just my thing. Um,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so that was, that was interesting. Um, a couple more and then we’ll get to the episode. Finally.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, no problem.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Um, widow goals was given as we talked about before a large amount of money and we thought it was like 9 000 something from this organization called 100 women who care i got the check um the final amount was 14 520 something like that so it was
Mark Massaro:
That’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
over
Mark Massaro:
so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
almost
Mark Massaro:
awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
15 000 um is the
Mark Massaro:
That’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
updated
Mark Massaro:
amazing.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
amount it’s crazy so that’s exciting and because of that we’ve i think i’ve talked about we planned a retreat in fact we have some listeners who told me they’re coming i’m so excited Um, someday we’ll do like a big, huge one with widows and widowers and like a big thing so we can invite everybody. This is starting small, but we eventually want to do, do a big one. Um, you know, people could hear us talk live. That’d be so cool. I mean, like we’re big time, you know, and
Mark Massaro:
Hehehehe.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you know, it’s so
Mark Massaro:
Hehehe.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
fun. Like I meet these people. I know you do too. Meet like online and they already like know our stories. They know us. In fact, I have a lot of my grief recovery clients come from the podcast. so they feel like they already know me and you, and it’s really fun.
Mark Massaro:
That’s pretty cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, yeah, it’s a lot of fun.
Mark Massaro:
It’s especially touching when you, you know, when we’ve read the emails from people
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh-huh.
Mark Massaro:
saying that like we’ve helped them and stuff like that. It’s really encouraging and it’s just like, oh man, this is awesome, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, it makes it totally worth it. And we planned out the whole entire year of all the events we’re gonna do in this area and we have money to pay for things. And it’s so exciting and more money for scholarships for grief recovery and just a lot of great things. So that’s an exciting. And then one more thing I wanted to share just in the grief space and then we’ll move forward. I don’t think she’d mind me sharing. So Haley has a hard time like opening up. So it’s my 17 year old. She was 14 when her dad died. And we went to the doctor and she had some blood taken. And when we were walking to the car, she just started crying. And like, she just doesn’t cry. And I was like, what’s going on? And she’s like, just reminds me of daddy. Cause he had to get his blood
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
taken all the time. And just being in a Kaiser building, just everything,
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
everything just brought it all back. And instead of like, so I’ve learned through grief recovery, let your kids feel it. Like don’t just try to like make them feel better. So I just let her talk. And you’re also not supposed to like physically comfort them. When they’re done, you can give them a hug, but to let them talk. And so I even explained that to her, like, I care. And that’s why I’m not stopping this. I want you to talk about like, this is healthy. And so she actually opened up and talked for like 15 to 20 minutes about what she was feeling. And so I just think that’s an important thing for everyone to know. If your kids are grieving, let them talk about it. Don’t stuff it down like let them ask them more questions. And then, of course, you can give them a hug when you’re done talking, but don’t. interrupt like when we like give someone a Kleenex we pat their back we whatever we stop their grief like we stop it and So we need to let them fully feel it and so that would be a little bit of advice from that experience and just from what?
Mark Massaro:
That’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’ve
Mark Massaro:
good
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
learned
Mark Massaro:
advice.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, that’s something that was hard for me when I started leading grief recoveries is like watching people cry not doing anything But you have to do it like that’s what you’re supposed to do as a leader And I explained it to everyone like we love each other, but we don’t touch anybody. We don’t send them, give them a Kleenex. We just let them feel it so that they can heal what we feel we heal, you know,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
said it like probably a million times on here. So anyways, I think that’s most of my big things. Oh, Hayden went back to college. So that’s been he’s been gone like a week or two, I don’t even know, a week and a half. So it’s going alright, but it feels weird, like it shifts the family dynamic again. And so it’s been different, but we’ll be seeing him this Labor Day, we’re going out of town and he’s meeting us there. So we get to see him this weekend, which will be really fun.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah Labor Day is next weekend right?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, this coming
Mark Massaro:
Or
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
weekend.
Mark Massaro:
this coming weekend?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes,
Mark Massaro:
Okay.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yep. So we’re gonna go where a lot of my relatives live, three hours away, and it’s only about a three hour drive for him, it’s kinda like middle. And we’re gonna
Mark Massaro:
A
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
stay
Mark Massaro:
three
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
there.
Mark Massaro:
hour tour
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, pretty
Mark Massaro:
of…
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
much.
Mark Massaro:
Sorry.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You haven’t sang in a long time, but that’s not
Mark Massaro:
Every,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
90s
Mark Massaro:
every
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
rap.
Mark Massaro:
time I hear somebody say something’s three hours, I can’t help it. It just happens. The
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Anyways!
Mark Massaro:
ship set ground on the shore of this uncharted desert isle with Gilligan. Do do
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
The skipper too.
Mark Massaro:
this. Yes, do do.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wait, Gilligan and his wife. No, no, no, no, no. The professor, Maryann and his wife.
Mark Massaro:
No. the millionaire and his wife wait for it the movie
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
The movie star, the professor and Maryann.
Mark Massaro:
star the professor and mary ann here
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Here on, oh, we’re so good.
Mark Massaro:
on gilligan’s aisle yeah good stuff
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, that’s good. It’s good stuff. Okay, now that we have, go ahead.
Mark Massaro:
you know no this is important
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
Mark Massaro:
so i remember one time and i haven’t seen gilligan’s aisle i used to watch it all the time but i haven’t seen like all the seasons or being a kid and seeing there was an episode where they were off the island. They were
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really?
Mark Massaro:
in some like building, talking to some scientists or something like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
that. And I just barely tuned into it and tuned out, but it’s one of those things where I’m like, I swear I remember that. Like I remember
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Really?
Mark Massaro:
that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I think they
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
were on the island the whole time.
Mark Massaro:
so I, that’s what I thought too. But I was like, okay, it’s possible that it was a dream. I don’t think it was. It’s possible
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Interesting.
Mark Massaro:
that I was dreaming about Gilligan’s Island when I was a kid, but I don’t think it was. I think there was an episode where they were off the island. I have to look that up. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You should do that, but let’s go ahead
Mark Massaro:
don’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and get
Mark Massaro:
worry
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
into
Mark Massaro:
listeners.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the episode.
Mark Massaro:
I will fill you in on the next episode,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
As soon
Mark Massaro:
whether
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
as we
Mark Massaro:
or not
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know.
Mark Massaro:
they ever made it off Gilligan’s Island. Tune
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
All
Mark Massaro:
in
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right.
Mark Massaro:
next time to find out.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay, we
Mark Massaro:
Anyways,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
will.
Mark Massaro:
so we will. So today’s episode. This is uh, I’m trying to remember it. Hold on. I remember what it’s about, but I’m trying to remember the title. How to handle the would have beens.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
would-be days but
Mark Massaro:
Dang
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes
Mark Massaro:
it, the would be days.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s
Mark Massaro:
So close.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
close enough.
Mark Massaro:
Okay, so explain what that is.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That means this would have been our 20 year anniversary. This would have been his or her birthday. This would have been, what other special days? Those are the ones we were mostly talking
Mark Massaro:
The day,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
about.
Mark Massaro:
or this was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
the day they died
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes,
Mark Massaro:
or something.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
oh
Mark Massaro:
I guess
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes.
Mark Massaro:
it’s under that category.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, this is the day they died. This would be, I mean, we can even go into things like this would be the day that we watched our child graduate together, or this would be
Mark Massaro:
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
on this day. This would be like. For me on the 20 year anniversary, it was like, what would we be doing today? Like,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I just kind of went through that in my head. Like, this is what we would be doing. And it was just a weird thought. Like, if Luke had never gotten sick, what would we be doing? Or if he had gotten sick, but gotten better. Like, you know, he had cancer twice. What if he had never got it again? What would we be doing?
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And it was a very, very strange thing. And so what we’re gonna talk about in this episode is like things, cause you and I do. these would be days differently. Everybody does them differently, but to give you guys some ideas of things that have worked for us. So why don’t we start with the, I know you just experienced this, the death date, the anniversary of the day they died. What have you done in the past? What’s worked for you? What was it like for you this year? Because we’ve both gone through three of these.
Mark Massaro:
The main thing I do that I’ve learned is to even leading up to it, not anticipate how I’m going to feel. Because there’s been, I remember I think it was year two, it was sad, but it just kind of felt like another day. Like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
it didn’t, I mean, it didn’t feel particularly harder for some reason. It just didn’t. year one was like really hard. It sucked and this year was really, I didn’t have a very good day overall. I had a lot of grief, a lot of sadness that I was thinking about like what the heck happened to our life and you know what I mean? Like just a lot of reality was setting in that day and so it’s It wasn’t just about grief. It was just, it was, it wasn’t only that, but it was also like the, whoa, like that’s, it’s so weird. Like we had this totally normal life, like what happened, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
And, um, so it was a lot of stuff like that, but so I’d say that’s the first thing I do is like the night before I don’t anticipate how I’m going to feel. I might
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
feel fine. I might be broken, like, but I just go into it knowing, like, let’s just see how I feel.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Um, so that’s one of the things I think it’s, um, don’t be afraid to, to share with people that it’s that day.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
Um, that’s another thing. Don’t, don’t expect people to remember.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Exactly.
Mark Massaro:
Um, and if
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s…
Mark Massaro:
you need to talk to people about it, um, bring it up. So those are, um, probably two of the things I would start by saying
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
that are my kind of like go-tos. Um, but also like I just, I, you know, I feel what I need to feel and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
I just go with it. And if I want to cry, I cry. If I want to be angry, I’m angry and irritable. And I just kind of distance myself. I laid in bed a lot of the day, if I remember
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
right. I think that was the day. You know, it was three weeks ago now, two weeks ago. I don’t know, two and a half weeks ago, something like that. So I don’t really remember, but I think I was just in bed a lot of the day,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
just kind of laying there. I can’t remember if that was the day or if that was a different day I was feeling grief, but I’ve had some grief this month. But so those are some of the things that I’ve done. I also, sometimes I look at pictures, sometimes I don’t wanna look at pictures,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
and I do whichever one I want. Or what’s really hard, as you know, is Facebook memories.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
Because
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
there’s
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
tons
Mark Massaro:
have all
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
of.
Mark Massaro:
these memories. of not necessarily on August 13th when she died, but like say tomorrow, like her birthday.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
It’s like there’s this total like cutoff point. Like I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
have all these years and years and years
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
of wishing her a happy birthday, telling her what a great bride she is, how much I love her, happy birthday, all this stuff. And then all of a sudden it’s like, we miss you. I can’t believe you’re gone kind of posts,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
you know, and it’s just very
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
different. So anyways, how about you?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, I’d like to go back to yours first and talk specifically like what can you share with the audience, what you did like the first year and is, are there things you do with your kids on the death anniversary? And do, are you, do you involve them in it at all or what, what is it like for you guys?
Mark Massaro:
Well… I’m trying to remember, oh, we, okay, so on the day Lacey died, I had some friends come over and I won’t get into the morbidity of that story, but I had some friends come over to be with me. And we, you know, had a couple drinks and… just kind of hung out and sat around and talked about her and stuff and then a friend went and picked up sushi because Lacey loved sushi
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
and it was something her and I would do together on date nights and so my friend picked up a bunch of sushi
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
and we all just sat there and ate sushi. I know some of you are probably gagging right now because sushi
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Like
Mark Massaro:
is a
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
me.
Mark Massaro:
real love it or hate it kind of thing
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hate
Mark Massaro:
you know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it.
Mark Massaro:
So on the one year we got sushi and celebrated. mommy’s life and I don’t remember the specifics to be honest with you.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
But I do remember that and then I know like on her birthday we go out and celebrate with like a dessert because that was Lacey’s favorite thing in the world.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
So we do something.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
This year I didn’t even know whether to bring it up to my kids or not. I didn’t even know whether to tell them and I ended up telling them because I was you know moping around the house and so I wanted to tell I was like hey I’m sorry guys I’ve just had kind of a tough day because today’s actually been three years since mommy went to be with Jesus and it was really sweet Alexis is like oh hold on a second and she went running upstairs and she grabbed it’s the mommy pillow and it’s something that’s like treasured by her because mommy used to use it all the time to like when
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh.
Mark Massaro:
she was really uncomfortable and it was like this. round fluffy pillow
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
and Alexis really liked it and Mommy totally sacrificed and gave it to Alexis.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Aww.
Mark Massaro:
So Alexis treasures it and so she came downstairs and she holds it up to her tummy and then wraps her arms around me and she’s like, let’s hug with the mommy pillow.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Aww,
Mark Massaro:
And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sweet.
Mark Massaro:
so we, you know, it was just really sweet and then she offered to make dinner.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
She’s 10, you know? So,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sweet.
Mark Massaro:
and I don’t remember if that was the day where she brought me some homemade tomato soup. She took cherry tomatoes and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
squished them up in water and then microwaved it and added a lot of salt.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Whoa.
Mark Massaro:
And I’m not gonna lie, it was pretty good, but it
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow,
Mark Massaro:
wasn’t tomato soup.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s cute.
Mark Massaro:
But it was so sweet though and I ate the whole thing. I mean, you have to, you have to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
eat the whole thing.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s so
Mark Massaro:
So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sweet.
Mark Massaro:
I don’t remember if that was the day she did that or not, but she did that for me recently. So anyways, yeah, so that’s kind of, that’s my best answer that I can give for that question right now, because that’s, I don’t remember a lot, to be honest.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
I kind of mix things together and get confused
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
over what was what, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
So.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, we started, so the first year, I just had these weird things in my head. On the one year, I’m taking off my wedding ring. That was something I did. I
Mark Massaro:
Oh
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
just
Mark Massaro:
right,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
had
Mark Massaro:
I remember
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
things
Mark Massaro:
that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that I was like, yeah, at one year, I’m going to take it off. That’s a whole other topic. I feel like take it off when you want. Some people never do. Some people do right away. For me, that’s just what I decided to do. And I also, I did like, this is what I chose to do. I had everybody in my family over, like my brothers, my parents, like everybody that lives around us. And I got green and yellow balloons because I was like Luke’s favorite Oregon duck football team with those colors. And we made grilled cheese sandwich because that was his last meal. And
Mark Massaro:
Oh yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I played, I had everybody over, we played a video. I was like balling. It was like the video we made for his celebration of life. And then we wrote messages on balloons. Please don’t email me with all your environmental reasons why we shouldn’t have done that. Plenty of people
Mark Massaro:
Hehehehehehehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
said that to me, which I’m like, OK, it’s going to be fine for like 15 balloons. It’ll be OK. And we wrote messages to Luke. And I have pictures of everybody holding theirs. And my kids did it. My nieces, like everybody did it. And it was really, really powerful just releasing the balloons and just kind of making an event out of it. For me, that was what some people don’t want to do that. That was how I dealt with it. And we only did it on the first year. And then the second year, I believe we went out to, I think we did, Red Robin, Luke’s favorite place. And yeah, I think that’s when, was it his birthday or that? No, I think it’s the death anniversary. We shared, like before we shared like memories, this time we shared like, what would you want to tell your dad?
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And it was really cool them coming up with, hey, dad, this is what I’m doing now. Like, you’d be really proud of me. And they all shared things that they would
Mark Massaro:
That’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
want
Mark Massaro:
cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to tell their dad. Like, oh, you wouldn’t believe what I’m doing now. I believe that was on, yeah, the three-year anniversary. I mean, two-year. I don’t know. They kind of mixed up in my head, too.
Mark Massaro:
They do, yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And then the three-year anniversary, I do know. And I always go to the grave and just sit there and talk to him. But I ask God to give him the messages, you know, all of that. So. We did that. Haley wanted to go by herself, because she can drive now, so she went by herself. The boys don’t wanna go to the grave, and that’s fine. Everybody does it differently, but she wants to. So she went by herself, I went by myself, and then we all four. And this is, you know, I’m married again, and Joel was, this year, the third year, totally like, this is your day, like, whatever you wanna do, and so he understood that I wanted to go out to dinner with just the kids. And so we went to Red Robin, and I think that’s when we did that question again. Yeah, I think on the second year we did What’s a memory about your dad? And then the third year we did, what would you want to tell your dad? And so
Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s how we did it. And then it was so great. I got home and there were flowers on the table. And Joel said, they’re from Joel. And he’s like, this is for all of you. I’m really sorry for your loss.
Mark Massaro:
Wow,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And I just
Mark Massaro:
he’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thought that
Mark Massaro:
such
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was,
Mark Massaro:
a good dude.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know.
Mark Massaro:
Good job,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
He’s
Mark Massaro:
Joel.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
amazing. I mean, seriously, the way that he’s so sensitive to us, like
Mark Massaro:
It’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
about
Mark Massaro:
very
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Luke.
Mark Massaro:
unique.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh my
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
gosh.
Mark Massaro:
it’s very unique.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I feel so blessed, like
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so
Mark Massaro:
he’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
blessed.
Mark Massaro:
a great guy. Even in the interactions I’ve got to have with him, I’m just like, man, he’s such a good guy. He’s just got such a good heart, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know.
Mark Massaro:
He’s just so friendly and kind, and you can just, you can feel the love of Christ radiating from him, and I love
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
it. It’s awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Speaking of, I want to go back to this for a second, because I think I told you before we are recording, but I want to share this. When we did the Hood to Coast run, he meets this guy. He’s like 20 years old. And the guy is like, I mean, now we’re like the people are asking for advice. He’s like, so what’s your advice for life? And he’s like, Jesus. And he’s like, I shared the gospel with him while we were running. I was like, of course you did. That’s awesome.
Mark Massaro:
And Jesus said
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
that all you have to do… That’s awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So that was great.
Mark Massaro:
That’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
But
Mark Massaro:
so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
anyways.
Mark Massaro:
cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
The point is that…
Mark Massaro:
What a great representation. I love it.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know, like he really is sensitive. And so just kind of side note, if you are dating again, please only be with someone who is sensitive to you because you don’t want some, I’ve heard horror stories of like people who are jealous of the late spouse and all of that
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and who would
Mark Massaro:
are you gonna
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
not.
Mark Massaro:
get over him already? Or,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right,
Mark Massaro:
you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right.
Mark Massaro:
do you
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And
Mark Massaro:
love
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so,
Mark Massaro:
me as much as you love him? And, you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes.
Mark Massaro:
just all these things and making people have to answer some really horrible questions. And it’s like, no, because like, I’ve known you for six months and I was married to him for 25 years or whatever some of the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Exactly.
Mark Massaro:
stories we’ve heard, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
And it’s like, don’t ask questions you don’t want the answer to, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, exactly.
Mark Massaro:
But it’s also interesting though I hear and you say this stuff with the different dynamic of the children’s ages
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
Like some of those things you say like I couldn’t really have done with the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
kids like particularly Luke He’s too young to like kind
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
of You know, I don’t know. But anyway, so that was interesting. I was thinking about that while you were talking.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm. Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
I Was just
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it
Mark Massaro:
like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
does
Mark Massaro:
well, that’s interesting
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
difference in ages. You know, my kids are like, one is an adult, one’s about to be an adult in May, and then the other one’s right behind them. So they’re like older kids. So it is different versus younger kids, what you do and how you celebrate it. And then let’s move on to birthdays. So that was kind of like death anniversaries. What do you do? Or did you already say that I’m mixing
Mark Massaro:
Well,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it? You kind of put
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it
Mark Massaro:
chimed
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
together.
Mark Massaro:
in and added that, what I’ve done. But basically, you know, I made a promise to Lacey that of course, I’ll never stop talking about her, you know? And so I tell the kids all through the year anyways, but I like to really set aside a particular amount of time to talk about mommy and who she was.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
And I did remember while you were talking also, one of the things I did on the one year anniversary was a couple days before, I think it was a couple days before, I had found some letters that Lacey wrote to the kids,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
knowing she was gonna die.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
Mark Massaro:
And so she wrote some letters to the kids and it was, I’m not sure they were ready for it yet. I might’ve done it a little prematurely, just cause it was, it wasn’t that they couldn’t comprehend it or anything, it was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
just hard, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
But it was really sweet. But anyways, so yeah, so that’s kind of what, you know, we do on the birthday and it always has to involve dessert. You know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Lacey loved dessert. She would always make a joke. She’s like, I don’t care how full I am. I have a separate stomach for dessert.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s
Mark Massaro:
So,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
awesome.
Mark Massaro:
you know, so tomorrow, like I said, we’re going out to get some ice cream. There’s a little local
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s
Mark Massaro:
place
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
nice.
Mark Massaro:
called Brewsters. They make their own ice cream.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
It is
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yum.
Mark Massaro:
so good.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s so fun.
Mark Massaro:
So.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, for
Mark Massaro:
Anyways,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
birthdays,
Mark Massaro:
yeah, so what about you?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the first year, we were actually visiting my best friend, Deborah, because it was about to be New Year’s Eve, because his birthday is December 30th. And Haley wanted to make him a cake. His favorite was cherry chip cake. So she made it for him, and we sang to him with Deborah’s family. And that was sad, I remember crying, because it was still so new.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And then I think we got root beer floats later. And then the second year, I don’t. I think we did anything. I actually was visiting Joel. That’s why we didn’t do anything.
Mark Massaro:
Okay
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I mean, I think I wished him happy birthday and on Facebook and thought about it. But we didn’t do anything as a family. And then this year, I think we just said it was his birthday. I think I made a post and the kids might have I don’t know. So I guess for us birthdays we haven’t done as much. I always remember to reach out to his mom, because
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s the day she gave birth
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to him. And
Mark Massaro:
Yep.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
remember Um, remember her and I think I remembered his sister, um, two on the birthday. Um, so we haven’t, I think we do the most with the death anniversaries. Um, not as much with the birthday. Um, and then, yeah, we’ve talked about like what we do on Christmas and stuff. That’s if you want to hear that one, you can go to surviving the holidays or whatever we called it.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Um, but what other, like, do you have other specific things that you do or
Mark Massaro:
Well,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
throughout the year
Mark Massaro:
yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that you do?
Mark Massaro:
so probably one of the harder ones for me is our wedding anniversary,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah.
Mark Massaro:
but also like our dating anniversary is coming up. September 17th for us, it was in 2003. So this September 17th will be 20 years,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, it’s a big one.
Mark Massaro:
would have been, right? Would have been 20 years that we were together. And yeah, it’s such a bummer to have missed it, right? Like, you know, you’re like, man, like,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
we were like that, you know, Lacey and I were very much that example couple to a lot of people of like what a Christian relationship looks like, a Christian marriage, and had a lot of people, you know, newlyweds and things would ask us like, how do you do it? Like, how do you guys… like have such a beautiful marriage, you know, and it was fun. It was fun to be
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
that couple that like had the advice and you know, just, so it’s kind of like, it’s this feeling of like all of it died.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
Like all, you know, and I’ve mentioned this before, but like all the inside jokes, all the amount of time that we got to know each other and you know, all that stuff. And so, So anniversaries, particularly our wedding anniversary, because I remember how excited I was that day. And it was such a beautiful, perfect event. Like it just, everything went perfectly because even the little things that didn’t go perfectly, like we didn’t care. We were just
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
so happy to be getting
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
married that it didn’t matter. It was just such a celebration. And I remember like the first night we, because we had, you know, we planned and stuff and so we had an apartment together, but only she lived there. And then so the night we got married, we came home to our apartment for the first time together. And it was just, it was so, it was just such an amazing experience. And then we spent the whole next day opening all the presents from our wedding. And of course, Lacey being Lacey, she had a notepad and wrote down who gave us what so she could write 100 thank you cards later. And then the day after that, we went on our honeymoon. So for me, that’s like the, because her birthday is her birthday. The day she died is the day she died. But our anniversary,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm,
Mark Massaro:
that was like our day.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right. Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
That was our day that we shared together. And so that’s why that one is usually the hardest for me. And it’s all the memories from that day and from all the posts I’ve made over the years about just what a lucky man I am to have you. So seeing that stuff and she looked so stunning. She was so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
gorgeous. And seeing those wedding photos, it just reminds me who
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
she was. And so those are probably the harder ones for me. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And
Mark Massaro:
anyways.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
did you find it difficult this year? Because your anniversary is in April, right? Is
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that correct?
Mark Massaro:
April 26th, yep.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
OK, so did you find it hard being in a dating relationship again? Did it feel weird to you? Because now I feel weird being married and having an anniversary. I’m just wondering, now you’re dating someone else and then having an anniversary, did it feel different to you than before?
Mark Massaro:
It’s funny, I personally have become, on those days, I become overwhelmed with gratitude for Tina. I feel so thankful that I’m not doing this day alone, that I have somebody that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Ah.
Mark Massaro:
I feel truly, now don’t get me wrong, Lacey’s mom has been amazing
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You’re
Mark Massaro:
at
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right.
Mark Massaro:
listening to me anytime I wanna, anytime we wanna have a powwow together, she’s always a great source as somebody to talk to, but. as far as like my friends go and things like that. It’s hard for me to like unload on people. And so, but I feel really grateful for Tina because it’s different. Like she really
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
loves me, you know? And I can feel it in the way that she’s like, no, talk about it, talk about it, you know? And it’s just great. It’s so, yes, it’s so interesting, but I’ve talked about this in my post that like, it’s crazy. You can have these two feelings at the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
same time. I’ve been, been literally at the same moment so broken over missing Lacey so much and so grateful for having Tina.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
And the exact same, it’s in the same thought process.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yep.
Mark Massaro:
It’s not like one separates from the other or that I have one at one moment
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
and another at another moment. It’s at the same time. And that’s something important for people to know because I didn’t understand that at first. I kind of came
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
to that realization where I was like, wait, like you can have both.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
They don’t have to cancel each other out. It’s not hypocritical.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
And so for me, I get every time I remember that I’m in love again and with just such another beautiful person that it just makes me so thankful to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
have that again, to have that joy in my heart again. And to not just sit there alone.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right?
Mark Massaro:
Um, with feeling like I can’t call anybody and my only outlet is making a post on Facebook. Um, you know, so anyways, it’s so no, for me, I would definitely not describe it as, as weird at all. Um, but you know, it, it’s just, I just want to be real that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
there’s always things that are going to be hard because, um, You know, you still miss them, you know, but you can be grateful at the same time and that’s okay. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
anyways,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I wanted to
Mark Massaro:
sorry,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
read.
Mark Massaro:
I kinda got off track a little
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No,
Mark Massaro:
bit.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
no,
Mark Massaro:
Ha
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
no. That’s
Mark Massaro:
ha ha.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
kind of goes along with what I want to talk about. So anniversary. So mine’s really fresh August 22nd. So I wrote this post. This is the most conflicted I’ve ever felt on our anniversary because of the 20 years and because I’m married again. So
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s just so weird. So this is what I wrote. Um, 20 years ago today, I married Luke. If things had gone differently, I wonder. how we would have celebrated today, probably an Alaskan cruise. Luke didn’t really love heat and sand, so that was his dream kind of vacation. I, today I have such conflicting emotions. This is my first anniversary that I’m married again. Yes, I’m so incredibly happy in my new marriage, but my heart is hurting thinking of how different my life would be today for myself and my kids if Luke had lived. Today would be a joyous day of celebrating the 20 years we had weathered the storms. We would be reminiscing about all the good times we had and the hard times we survived. I’m sure we would watch our wedding video with our kids and laugh at ourselves and our goofy dance moves. But life rarely turns out the way we think. I don’t understand the things God allows. I don’t understand why I don’t have my husband of 20 years today and why my kids are growing up without their amazing dad. But I do have faith and trust. I do know that if God allowed it, I can accept it. I do have the hope of heaven and seeing Luke again. I’m glad when these pictures were taken 20 years ago that we didn’t know what was to come. but I can tell you 100% that I would do it all over again. God has taught me over and over the past few years that he chose me to be Luke’s wife and to walk him through cancer and death. He chose me out of all the people in the world and that is a huge honor. Although I only got 17 years as Luke’s wife and I wish it was a lifetime, I feel blessed for the years I had with him. Being married again does not cancel out the love I had and still have for my first husband, Luke. My heart has expanded to love them both. Happy anniversary, Luke. I will always love you.
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And I feel like that was like, I was able to express what I was feeling that like, you know, cause some people think, Oh, you’re happily married again. So you probably don’t have grief. Well, that’s not true. Like you still have these moments where you’re just like, it can still hit me out of the middle of nowhere and be like, Whoa, Luke died. Like it’s just the strangest thing, even though I know
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s been three years. It’s just
Mark Massaro:
yeah
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like,
Mark Massaro:
go back and listen to our episode, Grief is Weird.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes, exactly.
Mark Massaro:
We
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And
Mark Massaro:
talk
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so
Mark Massaro:
all about this stuff.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah, and so that’s it’s today. I mean, I think that was my biggest grief day I’ve had in like years was our inner would be would be 20
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
year anniversary.
Mark Massaro:
that’s a big one.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
That’s a
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s
Mark Massaro:
big
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a
Mark Massaro:
one.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you know, and
Mark Massaro:
What’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a
Mark Massaro:
the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
use.
Mark Massaro:
traditional gift for that? Isn’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I don’t
Mark Massaro:
there
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know.
Mark Massaro:
like traditional, like something made of wood is for
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Maybe,
Mark Massaro:
10 years or something.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I don’t
Mark Massaro:
I think
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
remember.
Mark Massaro:
that’s why I gave Lacey a cutting board. I don’t know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
Mark Massaro:
I don’t remember that, but there is stuff.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
Like I think
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and
Mark Massaro:
it’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the
Mark Massaro:
like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
night.
Mark Massaro:
gold or I don’t know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, and the night before we were, or is that morning? I don’t know. We were about to get on a plane. It was the day before and I was like, this would be my rehearsal day. Like 20 years ago, this was my rehearsal day. It’s just weird thinking about if I knew then that I would be like with Joel in Boston, like I’d be so confused if I had been able to flash forward 20 years. I’d be like,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
what am I doing with this guy that I met in college? Where am I? What’s happening? You know, it’s just like so strange.
Mark Massaro:
It’s surreal sometimes.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It is, yeah. But I look at the positive and like I’m so I’m thankful for the time I had with Luke and I’m so thankful that God did bless me with another person. Not everybody desires that, but that was a huge desire for me and I’m so thankful for that. So anything else
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
about?
Mark Massaro:
some people are built to be alone after
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
they lose their spouse. Some people are not. So we’ve seen a lot of things. I just want to address it. It doesn’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
mean that you loved your spouse any less because
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No.
Mark Massaro:
I’m not built to be alone. I don’t want to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Me
Mark Massaro:
be alone.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
neither.
Mark Massaro:
And I like having a partner. I like sharing life with somebody. I’d rather go through… I’d rather go through the pain of potentially losing somebody because that’s a big fear
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Me
Mark Massaro:
all of us
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
too,
Mark Massaro:
have
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes.
Mark Massaro:
is losing another spouse like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yep.
Mark Massaro:
Stacey walked through.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
That’s a huge fear. And, but to me it’s worth it. It’s worth
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
the fear. And we do have to tell ourselves, especially those of us who are on the younger side compared to some other of our listeners. I know some of our listeners would be like, y’all are old, I don’t know
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
what you’re talking
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
29.
Mark Massaro:
about.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Come on.
Mark Massaro:
Compared to some of our listeners, we’re on the younger side. And so, like especially for us, we don’t wanna spend the rest of our lives alone, you know? So anyways, but that’s interesting because I wanna read the Facebook post I made the day before our anniversary also,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
Mark Massaro:
because one of the things you said reminded me of it too. When you said, I wish I didn’t know, or something like that. I don’t remember
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
or
Mark Massaro:
exactly what
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
even
Mark Massaro:
you said,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
if,
Mark Massaro:
but.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah, I’m glad I didn’t know, basically,
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.
Mark Massaro:
I mentioned something like that in the post, but also I want to convey exactly what I was talking about. The feelings seem like they’d be conflicting, maybe to somebody who doesn’t understand, but this is my heart, our heart, and a lot of this
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
stuff. But so, tomorrow it has been three years since Lacey went to be with Jesus. Gosh, a lot can change in five years. We felt so complete and life felt as perfect as it could be for us. Please remember that you have no idea what is right around the corner in life. I encourage you to be loving and kind every single day.” And then I quoted a song from Bob Seeger called Against the Wind. I wish I didn’t know now what I didn’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
know then. And that took me a while to understand, but I wish I didn’t know now what I didn’t know then.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
It
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Deep thoughts.
Mark Massaro:
took me a minute to kind of wrap
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
my head around that. But, and I said, he was talking about finding out he was being cheated on in the song, but I feel like I relate to that expression. It’s so shocking to me how different life is now. Five years ago, I was so happily married to this extremely special woman. We were raising kids together, we traveled, and shared a lot of laughter. She always wanted to cook for me and serve me. I fixed anything that was broken, completed honeydew lists, and served her really well too. We tag teamed parenting the kids and split the duties and responsibilities so well. We had both been through seasons of being stay at home parents and understood each other’s roles and stresses remarkably well. I had a great job and life was so good in Lake Elsinore, California. We had a great church and a lot of really good hearted friends. We hosted barbecues and loved having people over to our house. We had fulfilled our dream of having a fun house with lots of things to do when people came over. We were loving our life and felt so grateful. We constantly prayed for and with each other and lifted each other up when we felt down. Since then, Lacey got diagnosed with cancer. We went through a pandemic and our life fell apart. She passed away three years ago tomorrow. I’ve started a podcast with a friend, shout out.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Shout
Mark Massaro:
I sold
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
out.
Mark Massaro:
our house, moved to Tennessee, bought a new house that Lacey has never seen and started a new life. Through the podcast, I met a beautiful and amazing woman named Tina, fell deeply in love with her, got my high school diploma, completed real estate school, thanks to Tina’s encouragement, and started a new career. I’ve learned how to cook and have become obsessed with keeping a clean house. It’s just so weird how much life can change in such a short period of time. We miss Lacey so much and I really hope she can see our lives. I hope she is proud of us for persevering. I think she asked Jesus to take care of us because God has truly brought beauty from ashes in our lives. I have no idea what the next five years will look like. You can plan all you want, but things can change that are beyond your control. I encourage you who have made it this far in the post to look at the things that are good in your life. Do not focus only on your problems. Choose Jesus, choose love, choose kindness, choose gratitude, and choose positivity. I am posting this today knowing that tomorrow might be a hard day. We love you Lacey and we miss you so much. I hope you can see how well the kids are doing. Thank you for being such a great wife. Thank you for being such a dedicated and amazing mother. Thanks to you I made it to the other side of the storm. Thank you for teaching me how to persevere and how to see how good life is. This I love just being able to say. You would love Tina. She is so good to me and so good to the kids. We really miss you. I pray Jesus shares my words with you. Your mom and I talk about you often and I’m still really close with your parents. We all miss you but are so happy thinking about you getting to be with Jesus every day. Thank you sweetheart. Thank you for loving us so well. We miss you always.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
picture of the four of us there. And it’s just so interesting because like, it can feel like I’m bouncing back and forth
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
on what, but to me, all those things coexist.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
And I love knowing that Lacey would have loved Tina. Like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
she really would have. And I think they would have been great friends, you know? And that’s like a really cool thing for me to like, to know, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
So anyways,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s beautiful.
Mark Massaro:
that was a hard. Uh, it was hard to, it’s hard to write stuff like that sometimes, like,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, that’s
Mark Massaro:
because
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really good.
Mark Massaro:
I, because I’m so concerned about judgment from people.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, that was
Mark Massaro:
Like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
beautiful.
Mark Massaro:
I, because I feel like, I feel like some people think, well, like, oh, well he’s happy now. That’s cool. He’s moved on.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh-huh.
Mark Massaro:
Right. We all experienced that and it’s like, no, like I can have both. I can miss Lacey and I can love Tina and those things can exist together. So anyways, that’s. That’s all I have to say about that. Ha ha
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay, worst
Mark Massaro:
ha.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, I think they just people need educated sometimes that yeah You’re it’s like when you have more than one child your heart expands to love them both I feel like that way about having another spouse
Mark Massaro:
I loved that. I remember when you came up with that. I’m gonna say came up with it. Because
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
think
Mark Massaro:
don’t know if you read
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I
Mark Massaro:
it
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
heard
Mark Massaro:
somewhere.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it somewhere,
Mark Massaro:
Okay.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
but I don’t remember where.
Mark Massaro:
I was like, that is good. That’s so what it’s like.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That is,
Mark Massaro:
Cause
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s 100%.
Mark Massaro:
I remember when Lacey was pregnant, I was like, oh my gosh, I was scared. I was like, how am I gonna love another kid as much
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
as I love Alexis? And then it’s like, as soon as he was born, I was like, oh,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hehehe
Mark Massaro:
I love you. It is you’re right like your heart just like expands and there’s just like more room in your heart
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
for more love. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
anyways,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s good.
Mark Massaro:
so what would your advice be To somebody who maybe hasn’t faced any of these days yet. Maybe they’re in their first couple months They haven’t passed that I don’t even know what to call it the death anniversary
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
They haven’t passed a birthday yet. Haven’t passed an anniversary yet. What would you? Tell them to anticipate
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s kind
Mark Massaro:
and your advice.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
of okay. To anticipate that not everyone’s gonna remember, that for me has always been a hard thing. I get my feelings hurt and all of this because people didn’t reach out, but they don’t know all those dates. Like a lot of people don’t remember, they know like might remember the month that it happened, but they don’t remember
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the date. So I’ve had to tell people, this is important to me, here’s the dates.
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So just not to get your feelings hurt if people don’t. reach out, but if you want people to reach out like a specific, specific people, then let them know. Like these are going to be, here’s the hard days that are going to be coming up for me. Could you please reach out to me, especially in that first year, people are there and they want to help you, but also to kind of what you said, like feel whatever you’re feeling, like let it be okay. If you cry, let it be okay. If you don’t cry, let it be okay. Like whatever you’re feeling on that day is okay. And then for me personally, I especially the first year I liked planning those days. Some people don’t
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like that. I wanted a plan for the one year anniversary. That was really important to me. I had all these things I wanted to do. And then I planned on the first birthday and first anniversary. Oh, that one was hard because it was two months after he died. So
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That was super, super hard, but I had planned to at least go out to dinner with my, I went to the grave and then went to dinner with my kids. And then I think we watched a movie. So for me, having a plan helps. Um, I did have a newer widow ask me this. She was about to face, I think it was her first anniversary without her husband and was asking me advice. Should I keep busy? Should I do this? And I’m like, I think if you allow some downtime, she was wanting to know should she go on this trip or not? Um, and I said, as long as you with other people, I’m like, as long as you can plan in some downtime because I think it ended up being a good thing for her to be able to be busy, but also have time alone. So she was able to do both because they understood where she was at. So everybody it’s different. But for me, it’s like having a plan. Even if your plan is I’m going to stay home and do nothing like that, like I think there should be some kind of plan going into it. I really think that’s big. And to enlist people to help you family and friends, like these are going to be hard days. Could you reach out to me? Because
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
don’t think that people are going to remember even your best friend. Like, even this year. Yeah, it was hard. Had a hard time this year. So just knowing that people, it doesn’t mean they don’t care. I get hurt feelings a lot because I’m really good at reaching out to people. And so
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I get hurt feelings when people don’t reach out.
Mark Massaro:
You know though, something, this is like applicable advice that I’ve given to other people. I’ve even given this advice to my kids about things when they’ve talked about like mean kids or whatever.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
In you being good at reaching out to other people, for that to be special, you have to know that other people aren’t good at it.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know.
Mark Massaro:
Does that make sense? Like,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
I mean, I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Joel
Mark Massaro:
know it’s still
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
always has
Mark Massaro:
hurtful,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to tell
Mark Massaro:
but
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
me that.
Mark Massaro:
like it is something that you are good at. And it’s a skill, you know, it really is a skill. And it’s not that, like you’re saying, it’s not that other people don’t care.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
It’s just some people are scatterbrained, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm
Mark Massaro:
I’m pretty scatterbrained. Like I forget things all the time, but it’s interesting. Like other things I can remember. So,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
but yeah, so anyways,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Goodnight.
Mark Massaro:
but I think that’s, like I tell my kids that when they like say someone was like being mean to them,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
I’m like, you have to remember though, like. in order for you to be a nice kid and to be your heart to be so special. Like there has to be mean kids.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm, that’s
Mark Massaro:
And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
interesting.
Mark Massaro:
she’s like, oh, that makes sense. You know, I’m like, because otherwise
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
everybody’s nice, you know, like.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And I have this friend that she always remembers our anniversary because it’s her birthday. And then I always remember her birthday because it’s her anniversary.
Mark Massaro:
Mmm,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So she reached out to me
Mark Massaro:
that’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
first
Mark Massaro:
helpful.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and was like, how are you doing? So actually a couple of people on the anniversary, like our would be anniversary reached out to me this year. But yeah, it is helpful. I never forget a birthday. She never forgets. And it used to be she would always wish me a happy anniversary on that day. And now she’s always like, how are you doing? Thinking of you today. It’s really nice. But I think that for me personally, that’d be my biggest advice is if you need people to reach out to, tell them ahead of time very specifically. Here are the dates. I could really use a text. But also don’t
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
be crushed if they forget. Because that’s,
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, that’s probably good advice.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah, because that
Mark Massaro:
Cause
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
is the
Mark Massaro:
I’ve
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
hardest
Mark Massaro:
done that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thing.
Mark Massaro:
stuff too where I’m like, man, it’s like nobody remembers, you know, but nobody remembers, you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
I mean,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And then,
Mark Massaro:
some people do, but you know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and then you can go down an aunt. This is what my counselor says, automatic negative thoughts. Like you go down an ant hill, like, Oh, they don’t care about me. Well, and then you can have this big thing that’s just, yeah. So you have to have your
Mark Massaro:
spiral.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
aunt eater saying, no, that’s not true. Like they really
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
do care. They’re just all busy. Like, you
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know, it’s like,
Mark Massaro:
yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s a whole different, and then I’ve also noticed this is totally off topic, but like a shift, like I have not seen friends near as much as I did before I got married, but my life. for years, even when Luke was sick, he couldn’t do much socially. So my life for years was tons of activities with friends. And now I’m married again, and I think people just assume that I’m with Joel, which I am pretty much all the time. But we’re making it a point, he’s trying to still like make friends in this area. In fact, tonight I think he’s going to a men’s group thing and like trying to make a point of still getting out and seeing friends, but that’s been a whole shift. And there’s this whole, like, that’s a whole other topic about like, I’m widowed, but I’m not a widow. like this whole thing that
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m going through right now, like where do I fit exactly? And anyways, that’s a whole other thing.
Mark Massaro:
Well, and I remember talking about that before and I kind of liked the thing I came up with that it’s not a title, it’s something
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
that happened to you.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that’s
Mark Massaro:
And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
where
Mark Massaro:
so, you know, you’ll always be widowed.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, that’s where we landed on our retreat to like, if you have been widowed, you are a widow, like you can come,
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you know, because it was like, well, I’m not officially a widow anymore. But I’m leading this but I have been widowed just like our podcast, you know, we’re still like widowed. Yeah, anyways, that’s a whole other
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thing.
Mark Massaro:
and I think something I would give people too, as advice, is if you’re dreading that day, plan to do something. Like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
don’t just, if you’re really like, I mean, of course you wanna feel what you’re gonna feel, but if like you’re afraid of the day,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
cause we’ve definitely dealt with that, we’ve heard that from people, they’re afraid of the day that’s coming. Like make a plan, like go
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
do something, try to keep your mind off of it, even if it’s like going for a walk or something simple. Try to do something to help you get through the day. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, that’s good.
Mark Massaro:
I think that would be good. And writing helps a lot of
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
people. Don’t forget
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Journal.
Mark Massaro:
that writing is an outlet for a lot of people. Like write your late spouse a letter.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
I think that can be really powerful and help get the tears out too. Cause like it can make you start crying or just make a video.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
where you’re just talking to him or something, you know, and where
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
you’re
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
creative
Mark Massaro:
telling him
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
outlet.
Mark Massaro:
the things you would want to say. Yeah, creative outlet. That’s a great
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
way to say it. And you know, we’ve gotten some flak for saying this in the past, but it is biblical that we are not supposed to try to contact the dead. That
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm,
Mark Massaro:
is biblical.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right.
Mark Massaro:
So but I don’t feel like it’s unbiblical to ask Jesus to share your words and then to speak freely.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
And feel like you’re but we are not supposed to and I know that’s hard for some people But
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
we are a Christian based show and so we’re trying to go off of what the Bible says, right and I Didn’t make that up. We didn’t make that up. That’s what it says that we are not to contact the dead So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
I I’m saying that because I was remembering a comment we got
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
that somebody Gave us a lashing
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah.
Mark Massaro:
So I’m like hey, I didn’t make it up. I’m just going off what God says, you know, and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
he’s the god of the universe He created everything so I’m pretty sure he can make the rules
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
So anyways, that’s my two cents on that. I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s
Mark Massaro:
almost
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good.
Mark Massaro:
went into Forrest Gump again
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know you can’t have two Forrest references in one podcast. I mean, I
Mark Massaro:
Can’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
guess you can’t.
Mark Massaro:
just maybe not maybe not the same
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well,
Mark Massaro:
one, you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I got
Mark Massaro:
like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
another
Mark Massaro:
I could drop
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one.
Mark Massaro:
a like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’ll keep
Mark Massaro:
you
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
running.
Mark Massaro:
and little for it. Yes That’s a good one.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That
Mark Massaro:
That’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was on
Mark Massaro:
applicable
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one of the, so you decorate your vans and you have like band names. And this one was all about Forrest Gump. And it was like, it was like, I’ll keep running or something like that.
Mark Massaro:
It was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, here it
Mark Massaro:
from
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
is, the
Mark Massaro:
that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
real.
Mark Massaro:
day on, if I ever went anywhere, I was running.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s actually pretty good.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, I’ve been practicing for years. You know, I’m waiting for the sequel
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
so I can be part of it. I want to be like Teenage Forest. That’d be awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s
Mark Massaro:
no,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
awesome.
Mark Massaro:
I think you’re I think you’re mixing it up with finding Dory just keeps swimming.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Just keep swimming. Yeah, it’s kind of like a mix of the two. Just keep
Mark Massaro:
Finding
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
swimming.
Mark Massaro:
Nemo?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Finding Nemo,
Mark Massaro:
That one’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s
Mark Massaro:
from
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
or
Mark Massaro:
Finding
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
he says
Mark Massaro:
Nemo.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
what Dory
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
just keep
Mark Massaro:
says
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
swimming.
Mark Massaro:
it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice. Well, would you like
Mark Massaro:
Anyways.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to close us out in prayer? Okay,
Mark Massaro:
Yes, I would.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thanks.
Mark Massaro:
Lord, thank you so much for, again, for the ways that you have blessed this ministry. And I’d like to pray that you would continue blessing widow goals so that Michelle
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
can keep giving scholarships and helping widows and widowers if that comes up too. just that you continue blessing us with the ability to speak to people, to help people,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
that somehow you’ve allowed us to do this. I just thank you so much and I’m so humbled by that, that you’ve used us in this way. I’d like to pray, Lord, for all of those who are going through difficult days, for all of us. I’d like to pray that you… that you put your hand on people’s shoulders and are just there with them as they’re going through these tough days and let them know that you are here with us and that even when we can’t feel it, you’re still here. And so I’d just like to pray for everybody out there who’s experienced this incredible loss that we call widowhood and that you would be with all of us. And we ask these things in Jesus’ name, amen.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Amen. If you liked this podcast, give us a little thing. Five stars on Apple podcasts, Spotify, any place you listen or take another 30 seconds to write a little review. That would be awesome. It helps get the word out. And it is exciting. We’re in like, I don’t know how many countries have you checked recently?
Mark Massaro:
70 something.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
70, 70. Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s pretty exciting.
Mark Massaro:
I think it’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Like
Mark Massaro:
71 or
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
We’re
Mark Massaro:
72.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
steadily growing and we’re also on YouTube. We are up to like 92 subscribers. So pretty excited. We’re famous.
Mark Massaro:
We’re famous.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So check us out on YouTube and all the places, all the things. I can’t remember what else I would say. Oh yes, if you’ve been touched by this ministry, you could help support Widowgoals, which not only helps provide the podcast, it provides retreats, events, and scholarships for people to go to grief recovery. There’s a link in the description. And if you want to know more about grief recovery, reach out to me. It’s a seven week one-on-one program that has been absolutely amazing. It’s helping so many people. So I think that’s it for today. And
Mark Massaro:
Awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thank you guys for listening. We really appreciate it. And if you want to email us, you can reach out at widowtoothsoonatwidowgoals.org. That’s our new one. We still get emails at the old one because it still says it on our old one. That’s fine. We’ll get in anywhere.
Mark Massaro:
And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So.
Mark Massaro:
tell us honestly what you think about me being a teenage Forrest Gump.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hahaha
Mark Massaro:
I want to, I want the feedback. Just kidding.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s great. We’ll put it as a poll, because we can make a
Mark Massaro:
Yes.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
poll.
Mark Massaro:
No, don’t do that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No, we
Mark Massaro:
I don’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
won’t
Mark Massaro:
want,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
do that
Mark Massaro:
I can’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one.
Mark Massaro:
handle rejection.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
Everyone’s like, no,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No, thank you.
Mark Massaro:
a hundred
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
All
Mark Massaro:
percent.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right. Well, thanks for being here, and we’ll talk to you next time.
Mark Massaro:
Alright, bye, God
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Bye.
Mark Massaro:
bless.
