86- Married and Widowed in 4 months with Special Guest Julia Gillette

Join us in this touching and candid discussion as Julia Gillette shares her deeply personal journey through grief and healing. In this heartwarming conversation with Michelle Bader Ebersole and Mark Massaro, Julia opens up about her early struggles with grief following the loss of her mother in 2012, and how it resurfaced in unexpected ways when she met Dylan.

Discover how Julia navigated the complexities of her emotions, finding solace in books, podcasts, and connecting with others who understood her pain. Witness her courageous decision to face grief head-on when tragedy struck again, this time losing Dylan, and how it changed her perspective on healing. Through her heartfelt accounts, Julia sheds light on the challenges of identity and the disorientation she experienced, leading her to find herself amidst the chaos of loss. She also shares the difficulties of moving away, leaving behind cherished memories, and the process of rebuilding her life in a new place. If you’ve ever struggled with grief or know someone who has, this conversation offers hope, understanding, and the realization that healing is possible. Join us on this inspiring journey of embracing grief, finding strength, and rediscovering the essence of self.

If you have been touched by this podcast, please consider donating to the non-profit we are under, Widow Goals. In addition to this podcast, Widow Goals provides Grief Recovery Classes, Social Media support, resources, and local and soon-to-be national events. ⁠⁠You can give tax-free here; thank you!⁠⁠

⁠Click here to get a free copy of Chapter 1 of our upcoming book, Widowed 2 Soon!⁠

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Transcription of Episode

Mark Massaro:
Hey, welcome to Widow Too Soon. This is your host, Mark Massaro. I’m here with my friend and co-host, Michelle Bader Ebbersole. How’s it going,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Do-

Mark Massaro:
Michelle?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s

Mark Massaro:
See

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good.

Mark Massaro:
that?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Do-

Mark Massaro:
I’m

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
do

Mark Massaro:
so

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
we have

Mark Massaro:
talented.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to say it like that every time?

Mark Massaro:
No, but I just had to get out one correct one, you

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay,

Mark Massaro:
know.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
this is three weeks in a row that we’ve been struggling with my last name.

Mark Massaro:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
But that’s okay, that’s cool. We all have our own timing. Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
Yeah, I’m talented. So anyways, how have you been? What’s been up with you?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s good. So like we just got back last night from Boise. It was very, very fun and like jam packed. Okay. So first of all, okay. So that’s where my best friend and her husband and their family live. Um, and her husband is actually the one who officiated our wedding. And so Joel

Mark Massaro:
Oh, nice.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
knows them and was excited to go see them. We used to go see them every summer. So anyways, we had this dilemma we could not solve. We have six people, every car has five people. And renting one was super expensive. Joel thought of flying us there, but then we’d have to rent one. Anyways, Joel had this brilliant idea. He’s like, why don’t you fly early and I’ll drive the kids? And I was like, yes.

Mark Massaro:
Hahaha.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So he drove them. I went on a plane. I was there and it was a 56 minute flight. And I hung out with Debra at the pool all day while they were driving. And it was amazing.

Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome. Did you call him and you’re like, where you at Slowpoke? I’m already here.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I mean, I would just follow him on Life360 and say

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
hi

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to him every once in a while. So that was pretty amazing to just fly there and then spend the whole day with Debra and then they got there late afternoon. So that was his brilliant idea, which I was like, yes, I love that idea. I came back with them because Grady, his son, flew out from there. So we didn’t have him on the way home. So on the way home, I drove with them. So while we were there, we went whitewater rafting, which is

Mark Massaro:
Nice.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
amazing. I even did what they call Ride the Bull. You get on the front of the whitewater rafting thing and you like ride the ball.

Mark Massaro:
That’s where they, yeah, okay. You’re the one that gets bounced, right?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes,

Mark Massaro:
Or something

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and

Mark Massaro:
like

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I

Mark Massaro:
that,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
fell

Mark Massaro:
okay.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
straight

Mark Massaro:
Ha ha

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
backwards. But it was

Mark Massaro:
ha.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really, really fun. All the kids had a great time. Let’s see what else to do. Waterpark we went to. We went to a penitentiary, like all kinds of random stuff.

Mark Massaro:
No trip is complete without it.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know. It was kind of like the last day and we had these free passes to go to this garden, which was not great. It was like every flower was dead. It was not pretty. But next door to it and the kids were hating it was like one hundred and two degrees and they like literally hated it. But there was a penitentiary next door. So that was a little more interesting. And we were like, the lesson here is obey the law. Like, you don’t want to be put in a penitentiary.

Mark Massaro:
Yeah, yeah, it’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And

Mark Massaro:
generally

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that

Mark Massaro:
not a

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was

Mark Massaro:
good

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
what

Mark Massaro:
thing.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I mean, I could go on and on. We like we did so many fun things. Oh, and Deborah and I saw. and my kids saw the Barbie movie and I thought it was hilarious. I personally don’t recommend it for little kids. Like it’s PG-13 for a reason. So anyways, I’m not gonna get all into that because people are gonna be like, uh-uh you shouldn’t see it, but we personally liked it and had fun. And we got to take a picture in a Barbie box and it was really fun. Um, let’s see what else. It was just

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a great

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
time. It was a great

Mark Massaro:
I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
time.

Mark Massaro:
am not going to see the Barbie movie. So,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah

Mark Massaro:
you

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and

Mark Massaro:
know,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I wouldn’t recommend it for your kids. Like it’s

Mark Massaro:
difference

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
not

Mark Massaro:
of

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it.

Mark Massaro:
opinions. Ha ha

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,

Mark Massaro:
ha.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
well, yeah, and it’s I in my opinion the each his own like but I wouldn’t probably take kids under 10 or 13 or

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I don’t

Mark Massaro:
that’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know

Mark Massaro:
kind of what I’ve heard.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, it’s like adult humor. Um

Mark Massaro:
Okay.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
But it we had a good time. I mean, there’s like some women in power things and the endeavor like loved it So it was it was really I think aimed at women in their 40s Like there’s

Mark Massaro:
Okay.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
lots of like mom things and like i’m just tired of being a mom. Nobody appreciates me and we’re like, yes so anyways Everyone

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
listening,

Mark Massaro:
cool.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you go make your own decision, please. Don’t hold me to the Barbie movie. Anyways, that was something fun we did. And just like, it was great. Like I had so much fun with the family. We were at an Airbnb and just time with Deborah’s family and just hanging out. So that’s my long story

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
of

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
what I’ve been doing in the last five days. And just loved the quality time with Joel and the kids and everything and it was great. So tell me about you.

Mark Massaro:
That’s super cool. Well,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What have you been doing?

Mark Massaro:
I don’t have a whole lot to report. I’ve been just working. My kids have been going to camp doing their thing. I do have one huge piece of news to

Julia Gillette:
Thank

Mark Massaro:
report.

Julia Gillette:
you.

Mark Massaro:
So I was having trouble with my phone

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
and I called tech support because Tina and her daughter were both not getting my text messages. Other people were, but they were not. So it seemed to be a problem isolated to my phone. texting to iPhones. So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.

Mark Massaro:
I called tech support and the guy gets on the phone. He’s like, oh, that’s interesting. Just iPhones? I’m like, yeah. And he’s like, wait, what kind of phone do you have? And I said, it’s a Galaxy S21. He’s like, oh, okay, hold on. And so he’s like, and can you give me this number? And so I’m going into all the software trying to pull

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
out these numbers for him. And he’s like, okay, I think I know what’s wrong. And then he’s like, so he’s like, just give me a second here. If it disconnects, it might disconnect when I do this. I’ll give you a call right back though. And I was like, okay, yeah, that’s fine. So he’s like, all right, here we go. Click, my phone dies. My network completely shut down.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What?

Mark Massaro:
Like everything went away on my phone. I couldn’t do anything. And I couldn’t call. I couldn’t use wifi calling to call the guy back. Like totally. Yeah, I’ll, hold

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.

Mark Massaro:
on. I have to filter what I’m about to say because it was really frustrating. It was bad.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It was bad.

Mark Massaro:
So I went down to the Verizon store and they spent an hour looking at my phone and said, yeah, man, like

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Get an iPhone.

Mark Massaro:
he pretty much, it’s like he pulled your phone out of existence.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s

Mark Massaro:
And

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
weird.

Mark Massaro:
I was like, okay. And so they ended up giving me a really good discount on a

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,

Mark Massaro:
new

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
they

Mark Massaro:
phone.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
should, because he ruined

Mark Massaro:
And

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
your phone.

Mark Massaro:
so Tina’s been teasing me for a long time that I have an Android and they’re far

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
inferior. So I was like, you know what? I’m gonna surprise her. I’m gonna make her super happy right now. And so I was like, hey, does that same discount, does it apply if I get an iPhone? He’s, oh yeah, it does. And so I was like, all right. So I made the switch

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice.

Mark Massaro:
and this pains me to say, I have to say it in front of the world.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s better,

Mark Massaro:
iPhones

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
isn’t it?

Mark Massaro:
are better.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes, they are!

Mark Massaro:
They’re better. It’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
100%.

Mark Massaro:
way better. I love it. It’s seriously, I know, right?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know, right? I think

Mark Massaro:
I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’ve

Mark Massaro:
do,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
been telling you

Mark Massaro:
I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
for

Mark Massaro:
do

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a few

Mark Massaro:
love

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
years.

Mark Massaro:
it. Yeah, I know, I know everybody, everybody

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Everybody.

Mark Massaro:
I know has been telling me that I need an iPhone and every time I’m in a group chat, it’s like, Oh, Mark can’t ha

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Aww.

Mark Massaro:
the comments like, you know.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know. So I about fell over when I texted you and it was blue today.

Mark Massaro:
I don’t even see I’m so new. I don’t even know you’re like you have an iPhone. I’m like, how the heck did you know?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Because if people have iPhones, it’s blue. If they don’t, it’s green. So you’ve been green the whole time I’ve known you and then it was blue.

Mark Massaro:
And now I’m cool.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And it was

Mark Massaro:
So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like, what?

Mark Massaro:
Tina’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And you did

Mark Massaro:
super

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the little

Mark Massaro:
happy.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
ha ha. Because I was

Mark Massaro:
Yup.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like, oh, he’s

Mark Massaro:
I’ve

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
learning.

Mark Massaro:
been using that on everybody.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
He’s learning.

Mark Massaro:
I’m

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
like, I’m just ha haing and hearting everything. This

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And

Mark Massaro:
is how I roll

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
now

Mark Massaro:
now.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you guys can FaceTime,

Mark Massaro:
Yep, we

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like

Mark Massaro:
do.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
actual

Mark Massaro:
And it is

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
FaceTime.

Mark Massaro:
so much, I didn’t think it would be that big of a deal because we already did like messenger

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
video chat. Oh my gosh. The first time we got on FaceTime, I was like, Whoa, this is so clear and like works perfectly. no

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
glitches, no like, you know, sometimes she’d talk and it was like, you know,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
like kind of the robot voice. So none of that. Um, so I just have to admit in front of the world that I was totally wrong. Tina was totally right.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
iPhones are way better.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Woohoo.

Mark Massaro:
And so, you know,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice. What else have you been up to besides the iPhone? I mean, that is the biggest

Mark Massaro:
I’ve been

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
news

Mark Massaro:
trying

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
we’ve

Mark Massaro:
to figure

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
heard.

Mark Massaro:
out my iPhone. That’s it. Like I literally, Tina’s like, she texted me, she’s like, can you call me? I’m like, yeah, let me figure out how.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice.

Mark Massaro:
So it’s been taking me a while. So I’ve been working on that a lot, trying to figure out this phone

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
and how to work it. But I kind of got it down now and I’m like, man, this is so intuitive and user

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It is.

Mark Massaro:
friendly. I’m just telling Siri, I’m like, set an alarm for 7 a.m.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
please. She’s like, done. I’m like, this is awesome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know,

Mark Massaro:
So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
once you get an iPhone,

Mark Massaro:
anyways.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you don’t usually ever go back to anything else. I’ve had

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one since

Mark Massaro:
that’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
they

Mark Massaro:
what

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
came out,

Mark Massaro:
they

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
since

Mark Massaro:
say.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the original. Yeah,

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
they’re good stuff.

Mark Massaro:
so

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
But how’s…

Mark Massaro:
I’ve had Android for a long time. So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, well,

Mark Massaro:
it’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m

Mark Massaro:
a

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
proud

Mark Massaro:
big

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
of

Mark Massaro:
switch.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you. On behalf of all

Mark Massaro:
You’re

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the

Mark Massaro:
proud

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
listeners,

Mark Massaro:
of me, thank you.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
congratulations.

Mark Massaro:
Thank

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know

Mark Massaro:
you.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that there’s so many people happy right now because they were

Mark Massaro:
You know,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
worried about what kind of phone you had.

Mark Massaro:
one of the first things I did is I went over and gave us a little Bing five stars.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes, because

Mark Massaro:
I’m like,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you

Mark Massaro:
oh,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
have an

Mark Massaro:
I’m

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
iPhone,

Mark Massaro:
going on Apple podcasts. I’m giving us

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right?

Mark Massaro:
a little Bing

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You

Mark Massaro:
five

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
can

Mark Massaro:
stars.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
join the world of Apple podcasts. That’s

Mark Massaro:
Yes,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
amazing.

Mark Massaro:
yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s

Mark Massaro:
So,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so great.

Mark Massaro:
and then, I mean, not that it’s what I’ve been up to, but Tina just got back from a vacation with her kids, which was super

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I saw

Mark Massaro:
fun for

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
some

Mark Massaro:
her.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
pictures, it was

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so cute. And I have

Mark Massaro:
isn’t that

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to say,

Mark Massaro:
awesome?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know you know this, but she’s so beautiful.

Mark Massaro:
I know.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
When I’m like looking at the picture, I’m like, she looks as young as her kids. Like she’s just like this youthful, beautiful face. You are so lucky to have such an

Mark Massaro:
I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
amazing

Mark Massaro:
know,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
woman.

Mark Massaro:
I know I am

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I hope you

Mark Massaro:
and

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know that.

Mark Massaro:
I do know that she is very beautiful and I was just telling her that the other day that like her and her daughter could totally pass for sisters,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s

Mark Massaro:
you

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
what

Mark Massaro:
know.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I thought when I looked at the pictures. Like for real, like yesterday, whenever I saw them.

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So.

Mark Massaro:
she does have a very young looking face and she is very beautiful and I am extremely lucky

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Good.

Mark Massaro:
and blessed.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m glad you know.

Mark Massaro:
I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Blessed.

Mark Massaro:
think about it every single day honestly.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yay.

Mark Massaro:
So I just wanted to add something else because I haven’t been up to a whole bunch but

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, you’ve

Mark Massaro:
Tina

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
been

Mark Massaro:
got

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
working.

Mark Massaro:
to go on a cold trip. Yeah, I have been working.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Like your new real

Mark Massaro:
So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
estate job.

Mark Massaro:
yes,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Is it everything you

Mark Massaro:
I’m

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
ever dreamed of?

Mark Massaro:
you know what? I love it. I really

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yay,

Mark Massaro:
do. I do

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s

Mark Massaro:
love

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so

Mark Massaro:
it.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good.

Mark Massaro:
I got my own office. I’m on my own schedule. I can go

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s

Mark Massaro:
leave

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
awesome.

Mark Massaro:
and pick up the kids whenever I want, drop my, you know, like everything. It’s, I mean, I can go to the office at 3 a.m. if

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice.

Mark Massaro:
I wanted to and work. I mean, I’m not gonna drag my kids out of

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Let’s

Mark Massaro:
bed, but

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
wake

Mark Massaro:
I’m just

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the

Mark Massaro:
saying,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
kids up.

Mark Massaro:
like, I have a key to the office. I can go

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
there anytime I want. And, you know, so I’m looking forward to kind of learning more of what I’m doing. I mean, I know, I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
know the gist of what I’m, I mean, I passed all the tests and everything, but there’s a, there’s real, there’s book experience, and then there’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
real world experience. And so I’m just, you know. Plugging away every day, I’m like eavesdropping on other people’s phone calls. I’m like, oh, okay.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s how you

Mark Massaro:
Just

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
do

Mark Massaro:
trying

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it,

Mark Massaro:
to learn.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
okay?

Mark Massaro:
But anyways,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s awesome.

Mark Massaro:
so I wanted to get started

Julia Gillette:
..

Mark Massaro:
into today’s episode. We have a super fan with us

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes!

Mark Massaro:
today. We have Julia Gillette. If you have been following us on Facebook for any amount of time, you’ve most likely seen her.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
She comments often and likes all of our stuff and has been listening for a long time. So Julia. How are you doing today?

Julia Gillette:
Hey, I’m doing really well. I’m so excited to be here. I feel like I’m still trying to like realize that y’all are actually live in front of me.

Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome.

Julia Gillette:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes,

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
we

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
are.

Mark Massaro:
She was sharing a concern with us before the episode that she might just start listening and forget to

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,

Mark Massaro:
talk.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s

Mark Massaro:
So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
what she’s done.

Mark Massaro:
we’ll try to keep you from doing that hopefully. So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, I…

Mark Massaro:
Julia

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh.

Mark Massaro:
has been widowed since, did you say November 2021?

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
Okay. So she’s been in this club for a while, like the rest of us. And so We just kind of wanted to get started and see if you’d be, you know, up for telling us your story. How’d you meet your husband? And just kind of start from there.

Julia Gillette:
Sure, yes, I’d love to do that. So how we met? We actually met in a meme group on Facebook.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Seriously,

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you were just

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
talking about her awesome memes!

Mark Massaro:
That is awesome. Yes.

Julia Gillette:
We literally did. There was a meme Facebook group that started during the pandemic.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Huh.

Julia Gillette:
There were a few people who started it and there was a lot of current day events, but also theological discussion sort of thing that went on along with the group.

Mark Massaro:
Mmm.

Julia Gillette:
Also lots of biblical ideas, convictions, lots of those sorts of things were part of the group. So there was kind of like, some of the memes were based on that, but also like memes about you know, whatever, current day, political, pandemic stuff. And my husband, I’m trying to remember, somehow he found out about the group and that was like in the… like early part of 2020. So kind of just when the pandemic had started, the group started during the shutdown. And so he found the Facebook group, he was from Michigan. He found the Facebook group like in the first couple of months of 2020. I had a friend who found out about the group. I’m from Georgia. And so I had a friend who found out about the group and she thought I would enjoy it. And so I joined in like June of 2020.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
And so we were both like, you know, trying out this meme skill sort of thing and having fun and like, we were both in the group. Well, enough discussions happened that we sort of, you sort of got to like, interact in like, lots, like the comment sections were usually really interesting.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
So, that’s kind of where we started like, noticing each other, like in comments and discussions and then like kind of getting into discussions between the two of us. And we noticed each other, I stalked him.

Mark Massaro:
Hehehe

Julia Gillette:
I think he stalked me too. So, and we did that for like several months. So from like June to October, we were both in this group, kind of like watching each other, interacting some. And then October is when he like sent me the DM. and was like, hey,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.

Julia Gillette:
I know this is really weird, but I’ve noticed you, and are you interested in getting to know? Would you be interested in us getting to know each other better? And that was where it all started.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
It took a lot, and he would talk about how crazy he thought he might be to send that first private

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Ha!

Julia Gillette:
message. I always told him he was the brave one, but he didn’t really believe me because He thought I was the, so he started messaging, we talked for like a month and then he flew, he flew down to Georgia and we like officially met

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.

Julia Gillette:
face to face in that one airport, was

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s

Mark Massaro:
Oh,

Julia Gillette:
like,

Mark Massaro:
wow.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so cool.

Julia Gillette:
and so he thought that like I was the brave one because I picked up this like man I never met at the airport and he got in

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Ha!

Julia Gillette:
the car with me. So

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Julia Gillette:
yeah,

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Julia Gillette:
that’s like how we met. I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.

Julia Gillette:
know it’s a little,

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
Yeah, I tell people we met online. It wasn’t a dating site, but like, it happened.

Mark Massaro:
You know,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh

Mark Massaro:
everybody’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
huh.

Mark Massaro:
story is unique and that’s a cool story. It’s not, um, it’s not an unheard of way to meet somebody or something. You know, I mean, that’s how, how it happens, you know, communicate

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.

Mark Massaro:
and you get to know each other or whatever. That’s super cool. And then, um, how long did you guys date for?

Julia Gillette:
Yes. So we dated for about five months before we were

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
engaged. And then, so that would have been like, so we met like officially in November of 2020, we’re engaged in April of 21. So it was about five months of dating.

Mark Massaro:
Oh wow.

Julia Gillette:
And then we had about exactly a three month engagement to our wedding in July.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.

Mark Massaro:
Oh, okay.

Julia Gillette:
So yeah,

Mark Massaro:
Wow.

Julia Gillette:
from. Officially meeting in person to wedding was about nine months.

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And so

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you did that whole long distance thing too.

Julia Gillette:
Yes,

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
yes,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You know what that’s

Julia Gillette:
the longest,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like.

Julia Gillette:
yes I do, definitely.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
Yeah,

Mark Massaro:
And

Julia Gillette:
it’s

Mark Massaro:
so

Julia Gillette:
hard.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And

Mark Massaro:
who

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so

Mark Massaro:
moved where?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s what I was going to ask.

Julia Gillette:
I moved to Michigan.

Mark Massaro:
Nice, okay.

Julia Gillette:
He was actually, he was a pastor and

Mark Massaro:
Mmm.

Julia Gillette:
he had like his own place in Michigan. And It just made more sense. I mean he didn’t demand it of me. He thought that he was asking a lot for me to Leave move leave job home and everything and so but I felt like it made the most sense like it just made sense He was a pastor and he had a place. I didn’t I was like in a housing arrangement like with Another sister another two sisters actually, so I didn’t really have I hadn’t like bought my own place yet

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
So it did make the most sense for me to move north So that’s

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Julia Gillette:
what I did.

Mark Massaro:
how is it getting used to those winters?

Julia Gillette:
Well, it was actually, it was really hard, but I feel like I hardly have a fair opinion because like I, we got married in July and I moved to Michigan in July, like that summer, and he died in November. So it was like he never, and he was like an avid skier and at like he knew how to, you know, navigate the cold north in the winter. And so

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
he was planning to, you know, teach So like the first winter that I was actually in Michigan was mostly without him.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm

Julia Gillette:
I did travel, like I wasn’t in, I mean in Michigan for the entire winter, but so yeah, I don’t feel like I, they’re harsh and they’re really, really cold. I don’t really know how people like survive all of their lives up there,

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
but people do it.

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Julia Gillette:
So.

Mark Massaro:
wow.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So take us back, so you got married, and then what, what was life like then?

Julia Gillette:
It was amazing, it was beautiful. Neither of us had ever been married before, and we were kind of both in the mindset of, is there somebody out there or is there not?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
I don’t know. And we were, so we were both, we were actually only 18 days, 14 days apart, no, okay, my

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
birthday’s June 5th, he was June 18th, anyway.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
But we were

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
very close in age, we were both 33 when we met.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
And so it was, there were, we were both used to living independent

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
single lives. So it was like a beautiful, beautiful gift to find that person to share it with and someone who like got you and just, there was just like an immediate connection. But there was also like an adjustment. I mean, both of us, obviously, it was like married for the first time. And so,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
you know, it was learning what does life look like when you’re part of a team.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
and

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
not on your

Mark Massaro:
Solo,

Julia Gillette:
own.

Mark Massaro:
yeah,

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
totally. Wow, and so, what happened?

Julia Gillette:
Well, it was COVID. He,

Mark Massaro:
Mmm.

Julia Gillette:
yes, so it was, he had gotten sick. Like he was sick on and off several times, like after we got married, leading up, so we got married in July, and he was battling something, it seemed like on and off, but he, it never got like really bad, and he was never like, he never like tested positive. Until like the first part of October, he, started just getting really, really sick. And then the symptoms seemed very typical. Just the high fevers, the difficulty breathing and things like that started going on. His fever was just really, really high. And we couldn’t hardly,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
even with Tylenol, ibuprofen, things like that, it was just difficult to control. So it went on like that. I took him to clinics and different doctors and urgent care. And so we had about a week from the time that we knew that he’s seriously ill until he was admitted to the hospital.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
And in that week, it was just, it was awful, seeing him so, so sick. And he felt… so bad for me because like I was in a new place, I was a new wife and he’s like helpless and awfully sick.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
And so he was admitted to the hospital October 14th and things it was like he was holding stable but not for very long and moved to ICU and then was October 20th or 21st, I think the 20th, that he was actually put on the ventilator

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
and he never came back off.

Mark Massaro:
Mm. Oh, man.

Julia Gillette:
And the weeks, yeah, the weeks, those, yeah, it was just, it was hell, it feels hellish to talk, I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
mean,

Mark Massaro:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
to think. Those were some awfully dark, dark memories.

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.

Mark Massaro:
was he aware? And I apologize, I don’t know any

Julia Gillette:
No.

Mark Massaro:
much about the ventilator. Was he aware what was going on and stuff?

Julia Gillette:
I don’t know for sure how much he knew. There was

Mark Massaro:
Okay.

Julia Gillette:
one day where his sedation seemed a little less, and he did respond a little bit to me with some hand squeezes. I saw some expressions on his face. He squeezed my sister’s hand. So there was a little bit of response, but that was the only time that I could tell that he knew, but again, I don’t know, and that’s.

Mark Massaro:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
That’s hard too because I don’t know what he knew or what he could hear or… Yes.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
It was awful. Just awful.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Who?

Julia Gillette:
I feel like… Go ahead.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I was just going to say, was his family there too? Was the protocol only one person could come in? Or how did that work for you?

Julia Gillette:
it was actually, it was pretty complicated. His family, a number of his family members actually ended up with COVID like right around several of them

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh.

Julia Gillette:
tested positive.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
So they were actually not in the hospital a lot while he was sick. I know his mom came, I’m trying to think, I can’t remember if any other family members came in up until like the last day or two when he was like, they were saying like the family needs to come in. Then the family was coming in. But yeah, with they only one, I’m trying to think, one person and even that changed. Like sometimes I could take someone into the ICU and they could stay outside of his room, but then I could like suit up and go into him. But then like protocol changed actually near the end, just several days before he passed away and they’re suddenly like, actually you can’t go into the room anymore. And

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
well.

Julia Gillette:
then I was just like outside the room again.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh

Julia Gillette:
But

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
my

Julia Gillette:
there

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
goodness.

Julia Gillette:
were a few nurses who were like… you know, you can come in with me while I go in to do this, or like, I just won’t say anything. So there were a few who like gave me a few moments to slip in. But yeah, it was like, I can’t really describe how

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
awful, like to see that, like when you’re outside the window looking in, but I think it was harder in some ways before he was intubated, because that

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
was awful when he was inside the room and I couldn’t go into him. And he was like, so sick. and not able to breathe and he’s like looking at me helplessly through the window.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
And

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
it’s like, what do you do? Like, it was, yeah. Awful.

Mark Massaro:
Gosh, that’s horrible.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Did you have any of your family there to support you?

Julia Gillette:
My youngest sister did come up for the last about week probably.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you

Julia Gillette:
She flew up, her and a niece, my niece flew up. So they were there for the last, yeah I can’t remember for sure, close to a week I think. And then through his like the actual passing and everything my sister, yeah she was actually the one who went to the back with me when he coded.

Mark Massaro:
Gosh.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and they were, they allowed you to be, were you in the room when that happened?

Julia Gillette:
No, I was actually, they had asked me to step out to a waiting room.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
So the family had stepped out and they said his blood pressure continued to drop and they’re going to, they said try another med or something, but we knew that things are very, very near the end. And so we stepped out down the hallway to a waiting room and we were just there, kind of waiting to see what was going on and then they called code blue for his room number in the ICU. And then, yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
we sat there in the waiting room, everyone rushing by, and I knew it was him. And then in a little bit, one of the nurses came out to get, she was looking for the wife, and she said, I can bring one person with me. And so my sister went with me, and they let us make the call. like on when, but they were not getting any response. There was no like, no coming back that they could see. And it seemed like they were doing, like they were damaged, hurting him further by continuing CPR. So we just, we were like, no, just stop. Like there’s, they’re, yeah.

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm

Julia Gillette:
So.

Mark Massaro:
gosh

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.

Mark Massaro:
What were what were those? I mean obviously devastating and all that stuff But like what were those first moments like I mean did it did it? Sweep over your mind that like it’s over and or did you know what I mean? Like what were

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
the first thoughts like I can’t believe this real I’m sure and things like

Julia Gillette:
Yes,

Mark Massaro:
that

Julia Gillette:
that’s definitely those thoughts of like, I can’t believe this just happened. And one thing that was so hard is because all of this was happening far from familiar life to me.

Mark Massaro:
Mmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
So literally even the town we were in or the hospitals, all of those things were new. I was literally, I didn’t know hardly how to get anywhere yet.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.

Julia Gillette:
it felt like I was in a foreign land and the most awful thing that ever happened to me just happened. But one of the things that I remember the clearest, like in the hospital, the first hours, we’re just like, I felt so sure. I still remember my mother-in-law asking me, she said, you’re going home or are you going home? She was inferring, I mean, she was implying that like, this probably means I will go back to Georgia immediately. And I just remember thinking one of the things that is like the clearest is like, I can’t leave. Like I will not leave Michigan. Like this is… the only bit of us that I have left. And that is one of the things that I remember just thinking in desperation of like, if nothing else, I won’t leave. So

Mark Massaro:
Gosh,

Julia Gillette:
yeah.

Mark Massaro:
that’s hard. And so you went home to your guys’ home?

Julia Gillette:
I did, I had people with me for like the first probably a week or two, either family that stayed with me or either family that would alternate like in and out staying with me. But I, the thing of being at home by myself, it took a little while. Like it did.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
It, I, I just, I mean because for one thing I had just moved in.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
How long

Julia Gillette:
I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
had you been married at that point?

Julia Gillette:
wedding day, it was a little less than four months.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.

Julia Gillette:
So yeah, it took a while before I could, actually probably months, several months I would say, before I could be at our home and feel like I could be okay being there with just, well, I did have a dog. Some of my family gifted me with a puppy just a few weeks after

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.

Julia Gillette:
he died. So that helped a lot with just kind of that

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
learning to be alone there because I didn’t feel completely alone.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right. Wow.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So you’re in a totally different place. Your husband just passed away. Walk us through like those first few weeks to a month. Like what did you do? How did you survive? What did you do?

Julia Gillette:
It was so incredibly dark and I feel like to answer that question I’m going to like back up a little bit

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
because I feel like my grief journey actually started when we were like well a number of years before. My mom passed away in 2012

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, I’m

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sorry.

Julia Gillette:
and thank you. I felt like I never processed that grief very well so I kind of I did not feel and heal like y’all tell me to all the time. and I ran from it too much. Like, I feel like

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.

Julia Gillette:
I grieved really hard initially, and then it was kind of like, okay, I went to college, I was successful, had my career, had my, and it was like, I didn’t totally run away from it, but I didn’t feel like I was totally honest about the grief and like the continued healing process. And then when Dylan and I started dating, we like literally, it was within about the first month, I felt as if I hit this strange wall. in our relationship, when it was like, in like building emotional connection and intimacy and like really opening up to someone, I felt like it brought up this strange thing in me. And I instinctively just knew that like this stuff that it’s bringing up is connected to like this old grief that I had like shut the door on.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
And I kind of didn’t go to that part of my heart is what it felt like. And so a grief, and my old grief was actually like a theme in our dating. Like I started talking to Dylan about it and actually between our, like when we started dating and our engagement, I actually went through grief share,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm. It’s very good.

Julia Gillette:
like processing like the old grief of my mom, losing my mom and stuff like that. And like, I still remember Dylan, one of the times that I went to Michigan, he took me to a used bookstore and I bought the book. A Grief Observed by C.S. Lewis.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm,

Julia Gillette:
It

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.

Julia Gillette:
was on my list of books that I wanted. So our relationship had a lot of grief stuff

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
beginning to come up. And so in retrospect, it feels like there’s almost this bizarre thing of our dating and engagement and marriage. Through that time, there was this preparation that was happening in a way that I didn’t even know it.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
And so… I felt like when

Mark Massaro:
Excuse

Julia Gillette:
I lost

Mark Massaro:
me.

Julia Gillette:
Dylan, the biggest thing about grief was that I knew in my heart that there is no way to run from grief because I had tried it before and it did not work. And so when I lost Dylan, I feel like that was just like one of the things that was foremost in how I approached the whole thing and just like, I’m not going to fake it. I’m not going to like try to hurry, get it together. I am just going to like walk into it. and be okay with calling it the horrible thing that it is. And

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
so

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
the first months I was, I did, like, I just literally, I would say pretty much grieved full time. I mean, just

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
in our home, spending with family, journaling, I love reading and journaling, and I did like so much of that, like in those first months. And I feel like that’s one of the things, and podcasts, Elle’s podcast was one of the ones, I still don’t know how I found it.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh.

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm

Julia Gillette:
I think it was probably Googling,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
but that was one of podcasts and books and just not turning away from it.

Mark Massaro:
Good

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.

Mark Massaro:
job.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome.

Julia Gillette:
I would say some of the things that kept me where I was in those first months.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
But I did really, really struggle to just know… I felt like I really, really needed to find young people.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
who knew because it felt like, is it even possible to make it through something like this?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.

Julia Gillette:
So yes, I was researching and finding people and stuff in those first couple months too, and that helped so much.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow,

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah, and then did you decide to move away or did you stay or tell

Julia Gillette:
I did

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
us about

Julia Gillette:
for

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that?

Julia Gillette:
a while. Yes, I stayed in Michigan for a while and then I kind of came back and forth to Georgia. I spent some time in Georgia over some of the holidays following just in the weeks after. And then I would go back to Michigan. And so I kind of came and went for the first, he died in November, until the next August. I was in Georgia some and in Michigan more.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.

Julia Gillette:
but my younger sister got married the following April, so that was really hard too, and something that

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
I spent more time in Georgia for then.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
So yeah,

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
and then August of 22, which would have been about nine months after I actually moved back to Georgia. Yeah, and I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And

Julia Gillette:
tried, sorry, go ahead.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I was just going to say, how was that for you? Like, was it helping your grieving process? What was that experience like for you to move?

Julia Gillette:
So hard, so hard. I feel like, yeah. It felt really strange in that so many of our memories and the bits of life that we did have were in Michigan. And so it felt like it’s just another step further away from the life that we had or anything. But I felt strongly that I needed to figure out how to move forward as like, on my own, but I felt like I could not really do it in Michigan where I had like… I mean it was a new life. I did not

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
have it and the culture is so different and just like everything was new so I felt like how I’m like trying to rebuild with rubble on another planet

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.

Julia Gillette:
is what it felt

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
like. My in-laws have been great

Mark Massaro:
Ahem.

Julia Gillette:
but they live like over an hour.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.

Julia Gillette:
from where I lived. So I didn’t have like any family very close to me.

Mark Massaro:
That makes it hard and it, it sort of feels like you’re having to accept the loss again to like move away,

Julia Gillette:
Yes,

Mark Massaro:
right?

Julia Gillette:
yes

Mark Massaro:
Yeah. Like.

Julia Gillette:
it definitely has been that. Yes, and we’re actually literally just Friday. It had gone to like a family member and then just Friday was the closing on the property going out of the family like this last Friday. So yeah, it just feels like it’s layers and layers of finality that’s really, really hard.

Mark Massaro:
What was the hardest part for you about the whole situation? What would you, you know, we asked our last guest, Robbie, he said meals and like, it’s all, it’s different for all of us and so I’m just curious for you, what was like the hardest part for you?

Julia Gillette:
I feel like, I know a lot of people talk about identity. I feel like identity was, that’s I know kind of a big general thing, but that was one of the things that left me feeling so disoriented. Because it was like, I was used to being single. And a single life was normal to me. But it was like, I was this person I didn’t even know. And so just like… Yeah, the disoriented feeling, that left me like really, yeah, just definitely feeling lost and trying to figure out like what is going on. Who am I? On a practical note, I don’t know if I would, meals, definitely the grocery store like was definitely one of those places that I would say on just a practical note, grocery shopping. And I see a lot of people say that. But like that was

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
just… Because it’s like, okay, I know we weren’t married long, but it’s like everywhere I look, it’s like the things I see that he liked or that we

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
would have cooked or

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
he had his own little like recipes he liked to make or and it’s like, what do you just buy and like take home for you? Like, what are you even

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
doing? So yeah, that

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Julia Gillette:
I would say.

Mark Massaro:
that was a big one for me too. And so I was surprised to hear anybody else say that. So I guess it is a pretty common thing. I thought I was kind of, you know, isolated in that. For me, it was a little different of a reason. For me, it was because my wife grocery shopped and always knew what to get and what to have in stock and things like that. So for me, it was a little just not knowing what to do.

Julia Gillette:
Uh-huh.

Mark Massaro:
But there are like reminders, but for me it was a lot of reminders when I would see like a clearance tag. I would see something on sale and you know, anyways. So okay, so that was, yeah, that’s, I mean, it’s just so crazy. So the dog, the dog helped.

Julia Gillette:
Oh, he helped so much. Like, yes. Just having something in those first months that like, needed me, felt

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
like

Mark Massaro:
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
it helped with that. And I could like,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Ahem.

Julia Gillette:
give energy to, like I was training him and I was, you know, like all this stuff of taking care of him that helped to just occupy my mind with something else. And then his friendship. He’s just like an exuberant, happy, like adorable puppy. So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What

Julia Gillette:
that

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
kind

Mark Massaro:
Mmm,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
of

Mark Massaro:
yeah

Julia Gillette:
was

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
dog

Mark Massaro:
that’s

Julia Gillette:
huge.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
is

Mark Massaro:
cool.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
he?

Julia Gillette:
He is a cockapoo.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh cute.

Julia Gillette:
Yes,

Mark Massaro:
Okay.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So cute.

Julia Gillette:
yes,

Mark Massaro:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
Teddy.

Mark Massaro:
Tina’s same thing. She, she got a dog and that helped her a lot. I mean, obviously it doesn’t, you know,

Julia Gillette:
Yes

Mark Massaro:
help to the degree that you need help, but anything to kind of lighten the

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm

Mark Massaro:
load a little bit. But Michelle, don’t you also have, I think you have the same kind of dogs as Tina. I’m totally drawing a blank on the name right

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I have

Mark Massaro:
now. Labradoodles.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a golden doodle. Golden

Mark Massaro:
Oh, golden

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
doodle.

Mark Massaro:
doodle. I think

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Does she have a labradoodle?

Mark Massaro:
maybe hers are golden doodles actually.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
They are like half golden

Mark Massaro:
They,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
retriever,

Mark Massaro:
they

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
half

Mark Massaro:
look

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
poodle.

Mark Massaro:
very similar.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,

Mark Massaro:
All

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah,

Mark Massaro:
y’all’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and

Mark Massaro:
dogs look similar.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
aw

Julia Gillette:
Yeah.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
y’all.

Julia Gillette:
Ha ha ha.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, and for

Mark Massaro:
I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
us,

Mark Massaro:
think it is a golden doodle.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it was three months before Luke died, which was a crazy time to get a dog, but we knew, you know, it was like one of his last wish, he never had a dog. So it was good in that. Yes, it was very hard sometimes that he was sick and we had the dog and all of that, but it was like the best thing for me and the kids to have him afterwards too. So

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m completely understanding what you’re saying. It was a… big distraction for all of us to have him to take care of and to play with and all of that. So I definitely, I think it’s, it’s very good and very therapeutic. So, okay. So you move back to Georgia. Do you, at that time, do you have like a good church family or like Christian people supporting you and surrounding you? What was your support system like?

Julia Gillette:
when I moved back to Atlanta, I had never actually lived in Atlanta.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.

Julia Gillette:
So from Georgia, but other parts of Georgia. So no, when I moved here, I had like a few people that I knew in the city. I actually moved back to take the job. That

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.

Julia Gillette:
was one of the reasons like I was looking to come back to Georgia, but I knew that like housing, a job, like all

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
of that. But this position was like, like offered all of that. And it’s my friend who started the nonprofit. So it was just

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.

Julia Gillette:
kind of like this when I was back in Georgia visiting, They asked if I would volunteer, so I came to volunteer. This would have been like earlier last year. And while I was here volunteering, they were like, hey, we have a position opening.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh nice.

Julia Gillette:
And so it felt like at that point in my mind, I had pretty much come to the conclusion that like I have to figure out how to move forward and I really can’t see that I can make it like work in Michigan, like it

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
just looked too massive. But I hadn’t really thought beyond that. And then this job like kind of fell in my lap. and it felt like it was just the next step in those months of like, I don’t know what’s going on, I don’t know where I’m headed, but it felt like it was like, okay, I have confirmation that like, this gives me a job and somewhere to live and I can move back to my family, closer to a

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
lot of my family anyway, so.

Mark Massaro:
That’s cool. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So what would you say was something that helped you? Like, you know, besides the dog, but like something, yeah, I don’t know, just something that helped you kind of get through it, kind of maybe something that helped you realize that you were gonna survive it. You know what I mean?

Julia Gillette:
Yes, I would say actually I can point to something that was specific. The organization Never Alone Widows. I think Michelle, have you heard of them? It seems like we

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I

Julia Gillette:
had

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
have.

Julia Gillette:
like comment

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,

Julia Gillette:
anyway.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
wait, we

Mark Massaro:
I feel

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
talked

Mark Massaro:
like I’ve heard

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
about

Mark Massaro:
that.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it. Yeah, yeah, I remember you talking about them. Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
Yes. So I had I found I really don’t know for sure how I found them. I think probably Googling. And

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
it just so happened that like one of their conference, like their first national conference actually was being held in the Atlanta area when

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
I was back in Georgia visiting. So this, it was literally like not quite four months after Dylan passed away that I attended that conference. And I would say that was like a huge turning point for me to go and see and hear from widows who were either like in much the same situation that I was in, and also seeing the organization led by widows who had such hard, hard like stories and seeing where they are. And I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
feel

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
like that conference was like, I left, I had bits of hope before that. Like I think I knew I was going to be okay probably, but that conference, I, there was a huge shift for me that weekend. of just leaving with the assurance that it can be done. And it’s not always going to be this dark. And I can thrive again. I’m not sure exactly how all, but I see that it can be done. And so that was a huge piece of hope that made a huge difference in my healing journey.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm to find people who get it

Julia Gillette:
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE E E

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to see widows who are further along that they’re okay Like that was

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
huge to me and that’s a big reason why we do what we do Because we want people to see that you’re gonna be okay

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So that’s huge that you found that I know that was big to both Mark and I finding people who got it And so

Julia Gillette:
YESSS

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so glad you were able to go to that conference And then how do you feel now with your support system where you live? You live there a little bit now. Do you have a support system there that helps you?

Julia Gillette:
I do, yes, I have found a church here

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh great.

Julia Gillette:
in the Atlanta area, yes. I knew that I needed to quickly find a support system because I knew that where I am in my grief journey, I need that. And so I kind of just left it in the Lord’s hands, started visiting churches almost immediately when I moved back. And I found a church that has just been… wonderful and I’ve made lots of friends there and it is just yeah I feel like it has been a huge part of building a support system here for me.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
awesome.

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Julia Gillette:
Yes,

Mark Massaro:
It’s crazy

Julia Gillette:
yes.

Mark Massaro:
how God can like, walk you through the darkest of storms. And you know, a lot of times you don’t feel it in the midst of it. But when you look back, you’re like, wow,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
he was totally there.

Julia Gillette:
Exactly.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Like the

Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
poem, you know, the footprints in the sand poem, where

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
look back and Jesus was carrying you. It feels like that. Were there any specific verses or songs or things that helped you through a dark period of time?

Julia Gillette:
I would say the song that comes to mind that someone sent to me early on that has been hugely helpful is the song by Jason Grey. I thought of the name of it earlier.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s okay.

Julia Gillette:
Not right now.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Not right

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
now.

Julia Gillette:
It’s basically like saying, like, I’m going to be okay at some

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
point, but right now I’m not.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm, that’s good.

Julia Gillette:
in the ashes is kind of that song I’ve just like it’s I don’t feel like that’s a song I would have connected with a lot more earlier on I still love the song and it’s been very informative in like my grief journey but um that’s not the one that like it’s kind of I’ve shifted a little bit but in

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
the darkest months that was one that was so special

Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome.

Julia Gillette:
um as far

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What?

Julia Gillette:
as I’m go ahead

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You go ahead.

Mark Massaro:
Hehehe

Julia Gillette:
You ask about a verse. I feel like that’s actually reading the Bible has been like Not the easiest easy. We’re reading like it’s kind of off and on for me Like I feel like my concentration level is kind of off and

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
stuff I feel like the Psalms is just like one of the places that I find myself connecting the most

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
and one of the things that I’ve been doing I feel lately with like some hard things that I’ve been going through in like relation to grief and stuff. It’s just Psalm 23, but like reading the first verse and stopping. Like

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. And just believing that he will and can and has provided what I need. And so yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s

Julia Gillette:
I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good.

Julia Gillette:
found that like that. That has been helpful to like sit in that.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s good. So what

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
would you say to a brand new widow? What advice would you give him or her, widow or widower?

Julia Gillette:
I think one of the things I would say is just like don’t try to make your grief look a certain way. Just focus on like letting go and feeling what you need to feel.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s good.

Julia Gillette:
And also

Mark Massaro:
That’s really good.

Julia Gillette:
one thing that I feel like I’ve struggled with some is like letting the pressures of like other widows, when you hear the stories of like, you know, God was so close and he was so evident and he was like so present in those, there are parts of my story that like, I do not at this point see the redemption or like

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.

Julia Gillette:
it was so dark and so awful. And I feel like just not forcing yourself either to say that like, it’s okay. And that like you saw God there. If there are times that you didn’t like just be honest about what you feel

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s good.

Julia Gillette:
and how certain seasons felt.

Mark Massaro:
That’s really, really

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s

Mark Massaro:
good. I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really good. That’s really great advice.

Mark Massaro:
like that. Yeah, it’s hard sometimes to maintain a positive mindset when you’re going through so much negativity. So just kinda to add onto what you’re saying, I think it’s also really important that people… don’t feel like you’re saying, like they need to perform a certain way. Like, you know,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.

Mark Massaro:
we’ve obviously mentioned before, but like if you’re feeling negative, that’s okay. If you’re feeling positive, that’s also okay.

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
And so yeah, I was thinking about that as you were talking and it reminded me also that Tina shared something with me that she got from her sister that I’d never really heard this analogy before. I wrote it down so I’d remember, but. It’s like a camera focus. So what you focus on determines on what you miss. And so it’s like a camera. So if you point the camera at something, you might blur out the background and focus on the thing, but you could also focus on the background and blur out the main thing that’s right in front of you. And I kind

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.

Mark Massaro:
of, in my mind, I kind of viewed it a little differently also that like. So in Southern California, there’s a couple of beaches in particular I’m thinking of where you have a cliff on the backside of you, and then you have the ocean with the sun setting right in front of you. And you can point that camera at the cliffs and get a picture of some rocks, or you could just turn around and change your perspective and you see all the beauty. And I think that’s very applicable to the Widow Journey is because now you don’t always feel. That way you don’t always feel like focusing

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
on positive things, but it is sometimes a choice that we can make to try to see the good in any situation. And if we know that our salvation is secure, then there’s still beauty in the world. And obviously, Daryl, not Daryl, oh my

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No.

Mark Massaro:
gosh.

Julia Gillette:
Dylan,

Mark Massaro:
Dylan,

Julia Gillette:
it’s okay.

Mark Massaro:
thank you. Sorry, I knew it was wrong right when they came out, sorry. Dylan, obviously, being a pastor was a believer, and you know that he’s in paradise. And so there is always something to look at that you can see positivity in, because like you’ve heard us say before, where he is where we all want to be. And so, gosh, I’m so glad that I went through this journey as a believer.

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah. Uh huh.

Mark Massaro:
it would just feel like such a train wreck to go through it not having faith. And gosh, just, yeah. I mean, I can’t even go down that road because it like, you know, just the things that people must have to go through that don’t have faith. Because we all three of us, and you know, most everybody listening, we always had that to hold onto that we knew where they were or

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.

Mark Massaro:
where they are, or whatever you say it. But… So yeah, anyways, I got a little off track there, sorry. You know how I do, you’re a listener. I just

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,

Mark Massaro:
go down the rabbit trail sometimes

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s

Mark Massaro:
of

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good.

Mark Massaro:
thoughts.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s good.

Julia Gillette:
I like it.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So, Julia, what are your thoughts on dating again?

Julia Gillette:
Hmm, I feel like it’s really complicated. And the fact of, in some ways, I mean in many ways, it feels like I just did it. Like I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right?

Julia Gillette:
just

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
did it.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.

Julia Gillette:
And so I do think about it a lot and like, I’m like, okay, how would it be? How would it work? Yeah, I feel like they’re, yeah. I would have to be intentional in a way that it doesn’t feel like I’m literally, replaying what just happened. That

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right?

Julia Gillette:
there would,

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Julia Gillette:
so, but I do feel like it’s something like I do think about it. I have conversations about it.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.

Julia Gillette:
I do think what it would be like, like what would it be like to find someone again or to be married again? But it just also feels like there’s also a sense of the idea of like getting to know someone or dating again. It feels like just doing like casual, it feels like it’s really hard to be in that space of

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Julia Gillette:
like,

Mark Massaro:
Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
it kind of has to be intentional because

Mark Massaro:
Hmm

Julia Gillette:
it’s like the complexity of it. And I feel like that’s partly what makes me think, oh, is there like. I know there are people out there who date widows and widowers, but I just

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.

Julia Gillette:
feel like there is an aspect of you have to be okay with, like y’all talk about, still loving your other spouse, and you have

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
to

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.

Julia Gillette:
be okay with not being intimidated by those conversations about the other spouse or whatever. So it just feels like it is something that, if it would be with the right person who is open to having their conversations and open to things, to holding all of it, I do feel like it’s something I, you know. eventually would consider. It’s just, sorry, is that?

Mark Massaro:
I’m sorry. I’m all

Julia Gillette:
Oh.

Mark Massaro:
confused. I’m like, is that me? I don’t know the sounds my phone makes.

Julia Gillette:
I’m so sorry.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s all

Mark Massaro:
Okay.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good.

Mark Massaro:
No, no problem.

Julia Gillette:
Anyway, so yeah, I do feel like it’s something I am sort of open to, but it’s hard to know how to navigate.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right. And that’s.

Mark Massaro:
I think that’s awesome and very honest. And I think it’s good that everybody hears that because

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
almost people have heard as Michelle and I, and we were very excited to get back into the relationships that we’ve gotten into. And so I imagine as people are listening, there’s probably some people out there that heard us all excited to be with somebody again, and they didn’t feel that way. And they’re like, gosh, is there something wrong with me or whatever? And so

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.

Mark Massaro:
I love that we are getting these. different perspectives

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
and so all of you listening can hear that like there’s many different views of this and if you’re not ready there’s nothing wrong with you or anything.

Julia Gillette:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
It’s different for everybody. We all had different experiences and different journeys and so yeah thanks for sharing that. That’s

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Julia Gillette:
And I feel like one of the biggest things for me is like, just the kind of one of the hang ups that I feel like is big is like, how do you even start is

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.

Julia Gillette:
kind of

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
the big piece.

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
so, but I mean, it’s neat getting these different perspectives,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
because,

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
you know, um, gosh, I’m drawing a blank on her name. Uh, was it Kimberly?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Kimberly last time

Mark Massaro:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
who would rather be in the armpit of a hairy baboon

Mark Massaro:
That’s the

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to be

Mark Massaro:
one.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
exact on what she said

Mark Massaro:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
than date again.

Mark Massaro:
So see, so she’s like, no way. And then we’ve had people that are like, yeah, definitely. And then we have, well, I don’t know, maybe it depends.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
And you know, there’s all these different, so it’s okay that everybody has a different view of this. It’s also okay, like Tina and I, for her, she was interested in me, but she wasn’t sure if she could do this. And so we went through a whole season of… she wasn’t sure if she could do this. You know, she went through all the guilt and like, this is hard and it had nothing to do with me. And thankfully for us, we had this understanding of what the other one was going through. And so

Julia Gillette:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
it was very easy for me to understand what she was saying and I didn’t take it personally at all. There was nothing wrong that she still loved her husband so much that she had a hard time even holding another man’s hand. And I was like, I get it. You know, and so everybody goes through a completely different journey in a different season and so we’re all in the same boat.

Julia Gillette:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
We all have the same pain, but it’s also very different between each one of us. Even as much as we have in common, we have separate from everything, you know, from age to length of marriage to whatever. Because we had that guy, Dwayne, who Gosh, I can’t remember now. I feel like he was married just under 40

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Long time.

Mark Massaro:
years,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, it was a really

Mark Massaro:
if I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
long

Mark Massaro:
remember.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
time.

Julia Gillette:
Oh,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,

Julia Gillette:
yes.

Mark Massaro:
So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I think you’re right.

Mark Massaro:
what he’s been through is completely different than what I’ve been through. Even if it was the same kind of cancer, the same kind of battle, we still have very different elements. We have different relationships. And so I just I think that’s really cool. This is why we like getting different perspectives,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
is we want more people to feel like. like you were searching for in the beginning, that I just wanna know that somebody else has been through this.

Julia Gillette:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
And so thanks so much. We really appreciate you

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
coming on and your super fandom.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
years.

Julia Gillette:
Aw.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah. And

Julia Gillette:
Thank

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know

Julia Gillette:
you.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that your story is going to touch people in like Mark said, in different ways than we could, you know, because you have a different story and you’re a different age. I mean, I’m only 29, but whatever.

Julia Gillette:
I’m sorry.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You’re, you’re a little bit younger than us and you have a different story and you know, all the things, but you’re, you’re going to be able to reach people that we couldn’t. So we really appreciate all that you’ve done by coming on here. It’s not easy to relive the stories.

Julia Gillette:
Yes, no.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Um, but it brings like, it brings light to it and it helps. I know this as a grief recovery specialist, every time you say the story again, it actually helps the healing. And so you did more healing today and it hopefully helps other people to be brave and to share their story. In fact, I’m going to give this challenge to all of you out there to share your story with someone today about your husband or your wife’s death, because as painful as it is bringing those words to light, those memories, it helps you. It helps to heal you. So. I

Mark Massaro:
Definitely,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
encourage everybody

Mark Massaro:
that makes sense.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to share it with someone safe today that you can relive that. I still cry sometimes when I really relive all of that. It brings it all back and

Mark Massaro:
And that means it’s still in there, right?

Julia Gillette:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah, yep.

Mark Massaro:
You know what I mean? Like the pain is still, so like, I don’t wanna embarrass you, but you’re gonna be on YouTube, so you’re gonna be famous. But no, but I mean, you know, I could see you getting a little teary-eyed as you were talking, of course, and we could hear it in your voice and stuff like that. That means it’s still in there. The pain

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.

Mark Massaro:
is still in there, and so it does help to talk about and to get

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
it out and stuff. So, Michelle, that’s great advice.

Julia Gillette:
Mm-hmm,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Thank you.

Julia Gillette:
yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, I am a grief recovery specialist.

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
Yes,

Julia Gillette:
Could

Mark Massaro:
I’m a

Julia Gillette:
I say,

Mark Massaro:
pro.

Julia Gillette:
oh.

Mark Massaro:
No,

Julia Gillette:
Could

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Go

Mark Massaro:
go

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
ahead.

Julia Gillette:
I

Mark Massaro:
ahead.

Julia Gillette:
add one thing, one thing that I thought

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Whatever

Julia Gillette:
about,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you want to say.

Julia Gillette:
the question earlier that y’all were asking, like the hardest thing.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
One thing that I did think about that like was probably one of the hardest things to get through was the first wedding anniversary. Like the first wedding

Mark Massaro:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Julia Gillette:
anniversary

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah.

Julia Gillette:
of like, we had the top tier of the wedding cake and we had

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.

Julia Gillette:
the, like all of that sort of stuff and like what? in the world do you do with that?

Mark Massaro:
Hmm,

Julia Gillette:
So that was

Mark Massaro:
yeah.

Julia Gillette:
probably one of the like hardest things to navigate.

Mark Massaro:
Hmm,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.

Julia Gillette:
So

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I

Julia Gillette:
anyway,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
can

Mark Massaro:
I can

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
imagine

Mark Massaro:
imagine

Julia Gillette:
but

Mark Massaro:
that.

Julia Gillette:
yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
how hard

Julia Gillette:
that was…

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that would be. Just thinking, because I’ve been married about four months, just four months and like two weeks, and just imagining like what that would be like to then be at the one-year anniversary and be like he’s not here to celebrate. And so I’m so sorry for what

Mark Massaro:
And

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you’ve

Mark Massaro:
so

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
been

Mark Massaro:
sorry,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
through.

Julia Gillette:
Thank

Mark Massaro:
what

Julia Gillette:
you.

Mark Massaro:
do I not know is like the top tier that you freeze it and then

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You

Mark Massaro:
eat

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
save

Mark Massaro:
it on

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it

Mark Massaro:
your

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
for a year.

Mark Massaro:
one year?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
We did not

Mark Massaro:
Is

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
do

Mark Massaro:
that

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it, but… Mm-hmm.

Julia Gillette:
I actually

Mark Massaro:
is that what

Julia Gillette:
was

Mark Massaro:
it is though?

Julia Gillette:
yes,

Mark Massaro:
Okay.

Julia Gillette:
I was actually not playing to one of my friends like Insisted that it’s frozen and sent to Michigan with me.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s

Julia Gillette:
So thanks to

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
not

Julia Gillette:
her

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
great.

Julia Gillette:
we did have it. It was okay It was like I mean it was okay

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,

Mark Massaro:
Yeah,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I did

Mark Massaro:
it

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it

Mark Massaro:
was

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
on

Mark Massaro:
a

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
my

Mark Massaro:
year

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
first,

Mark Massaro:
of frozen cake.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah, my first wedding. And then, so this time I was like, mm, I don’t wanna do it, so we didn’t.

Julia Gillette:
Oh,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
But yeah,

Julia Gillette:
that’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
everybody’s

Julia Gillette:
wise.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
gotta do it once, I guess.

Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So,

Mark Massaro:
I didn’t,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so

Mark Massaro:
so I didn’t

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.

Mark Massaro:
know that I was, I kind of picked it up from the context that that’s what it was, but I never heard that tradition before.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, it’s pretty interesting. But then it takes all the space for a whole year and it’s

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a whole thing that, you know.

Mark Massaro:
Yeah, where are you gonna put all the chicken nuggets?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know, right?

Mark Massaro:
Hehehehe

Julia Gillette:
I’m sorry.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know. So any other questions, Mark?

Mark Massaro:
Um, gosh, I can’t think of anything right

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I think

Mark Massaro:
off the top of my head.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
we

Mark Massaro:
Just

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
ask

Mark Massaro:
do

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a lot.

Mark Massaro:
appreciate you being here and,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.

Mark Massaro:
uh, you know, just being a fan of the show. Thank you.

Julia Gillette:
Yes, thank y’all. For real, like I spent in those first couple of months after I found y’all, I can still like in my little house in Michigan and on my long, long road trips to Georgia, I spent literally hours and hours and hours like binge listening. And it felt like that was one of that was even before the Widows Conference. But like y’all were the first context that I felt like I really had like I found people who got it. So yes,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.

Julia Gillette:
y’all have

Mark Massaro:
That’s

Julia Gillette:
been

Mark Massaro:
awesome.

Julia Gillette:
a huge part of my journey as well. So thank

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,

Julia Gillette:
you.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thank

Mark Massaro:
Oh, that’s

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you.

Mark Massaro:
great. Well,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s

Mark Massaro:
thanks for sharing

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so

Mark Massaro:
that with

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good

Mark Massaro:
us.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to hear those kind of things. Like we say before, sometimes we just we’re just talking and like, so it’s good to hear when it and we do get lots of emails and messages and we love hearing it because this just started as an idea. Let’s do this little podcast thing. And now just to see it two years later, almost every week up uploading episodes to see that it’s really starting to grow a lot and just reach all of these people. And like, that’s really the goal. Like

Julia Gillette:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Our goal has not been, let’s make a lot of money off of this. Like

Mark Massaro:
even though we’re making hundreds of millions

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
hundreds

Mark Massaro:
of dollars. Ha

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
of thousands

Mark Massaro:
ha

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
of millions. Yeah,

Mark Massaro:
ha.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
lots and lots of money.

Julia Gillette:
Do

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s…

Julia Gillette:
you start a podcast again?

Mark Massaro:
Yeah right?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, let me tell you, it’s a big moneymaker. But no, for real, our goal is like, I mean, ultimately our goal is to affect people for eternity, like to share

Mark Massaro:
Mm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
our love for Jesus and how he helped us through this journey, you know, and then practically here on earth, like showing people how to survive this because we were made to live life and live life abundantly from John 10 10, like that’s what life is about. Like God didn’t allow us to go through this just so that we’d sit here and do nothing with our lives. Like

Mark Massaro:
Hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
we are made to thrive, not just survive. And so

Julia Gillette:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s really why we’re passionate about this. This is why we do this week after week. And yeah, that’s why we’re here. And so thank you for giving us

Mark Massaro:
Yes.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
some good feedback like that.

Julia Gillette:
Of course.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And yeah,

Julia Gillette:
You’re

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so

Julia Gillette:
welcome.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mark, do you wanna wrap it up in prayer?

Mark Massaro:
Yes, so we’re obviously going to pray for you Julia,

Julia Gillette:
Thank

Mark Massaro:
but

Julia Gillette:
you.

Mark Massaro:
I’m also adding this on as you kind of overheard us talking about at the beginning. We got an email that I’m hoping that in addition to praying for Julia that all of you in the audience will lift up Kim here in prayer. I’m going to read her email. I just came upon your podcast and wanted to thank you so much for what you do. My husband Chad was killed in a car accident on June 9th of this year. I turned 47 the day after his death. I am obviously devastated and had no idea the depth of sorrow and desperation a person could go through. I am walking with God but having trouble feeling as though I am really connecting with Him. Could you please pray for me to feel God’s presence and find my purpose through this pain? Thank you so much Kim.” So in addition to praying for Julia, I would just ask any of you if you’re listening that you could just stop for a moment and just pray for these two. women that are with us. So I’m going to start off praying for Julia and then I’m going to pray for Kim and then pray us out. Anyways, Lord, thank you so much for this time together and for Julia just being willing to be so vulnerable and sharing her story. We really appreciate it and we pray that it touches many hearts and many lives. We’d like to pray Lord specifically for her that she is constantly surrounded by a network of people

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.

Mark Massaro:
that are always willing to support her and love her through this and that you know she continues to find her strength and her abilities to like Michelle said to thrive and We thank you so much for walking with her and the ways that you have and we pray that you would continue to do that And just thank you for the courage and her coming on our show today And Lord, I’d also like to lift Kim up in prayer as she is just a brand new widow in this journey and just understand so many of the things that she’s feeling. And I know a lot of people in the audience do as well. Lord, I’d like to pray for you to draw close to her, for her to feel your presence and just to sort of help her see purpose and spiritual strength and to regain what she had before in some way, shape or form. Gosh, it’s so hard. It’s so hard to know what to pray for, for somebody so fresh in the beginning. But Lord, I just pray that right now in this moment that you would just place your hands on her shoulders and just comfort her and let her feel your presence, your mighty, mighty presence. And we ask all of these things in Jesus’ name, amen.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Amen. Well, if you liked this podcast, you if you have Apple podcasts like

Mark Massaro:
Do

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mark

Mark Massaro:
like

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
now

Mark Massaro:
I

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
does,

Mark Massaro:
did.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and give us a little ping five stars on Apple podcasts, Spotify, anywhere you listen. And you know, it actually tells us how many listeners we have on Spotify, which is awesome. I wish there was that for Apple too. But

Mark Massaro:
Oh, isn’t it across all platforms or is that just on

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No,

Mark Massaro:
Spotify?

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
if you look at our little anchor podcast thingy, it says

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
how many Spotify listeners. So there’s like the downloads

Mark Massaro:
Oh.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and then there’s the Spotify listeners. And we learned

Mark Massaro:
So we’re

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that,

Mark Massaro:
way bigger than I thought. No, I’m just kidding.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes.

Mark Massaro:
Ha ha ha.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
We actually learned that we’re in the top, I think it’s like top 50%. Like we learned that from that guy we did that interview with anyways.

Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Go share the word if you like it. You can also, I posted it on our widow goals, no, Widow Too Soon. page on Facebook, you can go see our, we have like all the episodes like on this website. I mean, you can get that from podcast players anyways, but we are now putting the transcripts. If you are visual and you want to read it, it’s actually really entertaining. It has our

Mark Massaro:
Hehehehe

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
names and all the words we say that is on widow goals.org backslash widow too soon. I’ll put that in the link too. You can go to that and you can go to any of the episodes and see the transcript. If you like, Oh, I just want to read some fun reading entertainment. And again, like I shared the last couple times, we are now under my nonprofit Widow Goals. And what we do in Widow Goals is we do podcast and social media support. We do grief support. So we give grief recovery, we give out scholarships to widows so they can get support in their grief recovery. And then we also do events which are local to me now, hopefully someday national. Actually Julia, you talking about that was like, man, we need to get to We need to get a retreat or something going

Julia Gillette:
Yes!

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and we need to make it for widows and widowers and like have men and women speakers and like get all these people together to show them. But but like yeah, just got me all excited. So anyways, we’ll be working on that figuring out

Julia Gillette:
I’m

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
how

Julia Gillette:
sorry.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
in the world to put that together. But I’d love to do that. So when we get more funding for widow goals, we might be able to do that. Anyways, I was saying all that. If you’ve been touched by this ministry and you want to give back to it, there is a link. where you can support Widowgoals, which is a nonprofit and a tax write-off. So I think it’s all the stuff I wanna say. If you wanna be a guest, you can email us, new email, widowedtosoon at widowgoals.org. Find us on Facebook, Instagram, all the places, if you just look for Widow Too Soon. Okay, I think I covered everything. So

Mark Massaro:
I think

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thanks,

Mark Massaro:
you got it. Mic

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I

Mark Massaro:
drop.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know I got it, mic drop. So thanks again for being here, Julia. We really appreciate

Mark Massaro:
Yes.

Julia Gillette:
Thank y’all

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it.

Julia Gillette:
for having me.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes, and we will see you next

Julia Gillette:
Yes,

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
time.

Julia Gillette:
all

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Bye.

Julia Gillette:
right,

Mark Massaro:
And

Julia Gillette:
bye bye.

Mark Massaro:
hold on, Julia don’t hang up yet.

Julia Gillette:
Okay.

Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Great. Hold on. Now I get to edit the-