85- Don’t Tie Guilt to Your Grief
Join Michelle and Mark in this new podcast episode as they explore the topic of guilt in the context of grief. Michelle, a Grief Recovery Specialist, shares her experience working with widows and the prevalent emotion of guilt they often encounter. From questioning their actions to feeling guilty about finding joy again, guilt can weigh heavily on individuals grieving the loss of a loved one.
Discover valuable insights and strategies for releasing guilt, letting go of regrets, and embracing the healing journey.
Gain inspiration from personal stories and learn how to find normalcy, joy, and love amidst grief. Don’t miss this enlightening discussion on navigating the complexities of grief and guilt.
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Transcription of Episode
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Welcome to Widow Too Soon. This is Michelle Bader Ebersole. I love saying my last name.
Mark Massaro:
Hehehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And I’m sitting here with my friend and co-host, Mark Massaro. How’s it going, Mark?
Mark Massaro:
It’s good, Miss Ebba Soul. I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh
Mark Massaro:
listened
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah,
Mark Massaro:
back
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I
Mark Massaro:
to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know.
Mark Massaro:
how I messed it up last episode. I was like, wow, it was just a total like, you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh huh.
Mark Massaro:
like when you just mess up a word or whatever.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know I listened like a hundred times because I was editing around that and I was like Ebba soul Ebba soul Oh,
Mark Massaro:
And you couldn’t have just cut it out? No, just kidding.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
oh and it transcribes it and it had written it as like Ebba like E-B-A soul I’m like he
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really
Mark Massaro:
have to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
messed
Mark Massaro:
see
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it
Mark Massaro:
that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
up
Mark Massaro:
I have to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes,
Mark Massaro:
see that. That’s funny.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it was funny
Mark Massaro:
Where’s that on
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
anyways
Mark Massaro:
YouTube?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No, just like on Riverside not a plug for Riverside, but we are recording on Riverside and like you can see the whole episode and you can like delete words and stuff. And so it’s on the left-hand side and I’ll just have to
Mark Massaro:
Oh,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
take a screenshot and show you that.
Mark Massaro:
I gotcha. No, it’s not that big of a deal, but
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
I gotcha.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it was funny.
Mark Massaro:
I thought it was transcribed on YouTube.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It is too. I wonder what that says. Cause I don’t do
Mark Massaro:
Okay.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that. That’s just YouTube does that. So turn on the closed captions
Mark Massaro:
Ah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
on YouTube, which by the way, if you are not a subscriber on YouTube, you might want to see our wonderful faces. So go to YouTube, look for widow too soon and you can see us. It’s a great experience. It’s a new thing that we’re well, not really new, but we’re getting more consistent on uploading.
Mark Massaro:
It’s newish.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, I mean,
Mark Massaro:
Or it’s new
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I have
Mark Massaro:
again.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
some new again. I’m being consistent. So on Sundays, you can, if you want to preview the, these episodes go on Sundays and you can see them on YouTube and then Tuesdays on the podcast. But anyways, I’m going to ask you, how’s it going? How’s real estate? How’s everything?
Mark Massaro:
Well, things are going really well. I actually just missed a call from somebody that, you know, perspective client that I’m hoping to be able to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice.
Mark Massaro:
help out. So that will be exciting, but I’m just trying to figure it out. It’s like I’ve been saying, it’s really confusing and overwhelming, but I’m just, you know, I’m learning a little bit each day. And so eventually I’ll know what I’m doing.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
So that’s how that’s going. The kids are in this really cool Christian. day camp, I think I talked about that in the last
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh
Mark Massaro:
episode.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
nice.
Mark Massaro:
So that’s been really cool. Last week was like water week for them. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
fun.
Mark Massaro:
it was like, they did just a bunch of like, summer sports types things
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
and water fights and stuff like that. Let’s see. You know, I haven’t had a chance to see Tina since the last time I saw her.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Tina.
Mark Massaro:
So that’s always a bummer.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
It’s just so great getting to spend time with her and stuff. But we had a really… good time on the phone the other night. We were just like laughing so hard,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Aww, I love that.
Mark Massaro:
like in tears, talking about 90s TV shows, theme
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, nice.
Mark Massaro:
songs. And so yeah, we were just making each other crack up. It was great. So, okay. So she actually requested that I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, let’s
Mark Massaro:
sing
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
hear it.
Mark Massaro:
this one on here, which
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
Mark Massaro:
is embarrassing, but I’m going for it.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Good, do it.
Mark Massaro:
So I wanna see if you…
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
Mark Massaro:
or anybody else knows what TV show this was. Um,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay, got it.
Mark Massaro:
okay. Ahem. Streaks on the china, never mattered before. Who cares when you drop kick your jacket? As you came to the door, no one glared. Hold on, wait for it.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
no clue.
Mark Massaro:
But sometimes things get turned around and no one’s spared. Do do do. All hands look out below, there’s a change in the status quo Gonna need all the help that we can get It’s almost over According to our new arrival, life is more than mere survival We just might live the good life yet Doodly doodly
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Um, no. I mean, it’s a little familiar,
Mark Massaro:
do
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
but no. And that’s the longest
Mark Massaro:
Okay,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’ve heard you sing. That
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was
Mark Massaro:
know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
great.
Mark Massaro:
You know, she requested
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay,
Mark Massaro:
it. She’s my sweetheart.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so you got it?
Mark Massaro:
I had
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Exactly.
Mark Massaro:
to do it. You know, gotta
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay,
Mark Massaro:
do it
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so
Mark Massaro:
for her.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
give me some, wait, don’t tell me yet. Give me some clues about the show.
Mark Massaro:
Okay, um, if I remember right, the guy was a butler.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Punky Brewster?
Mark Massaro:
No, that same era though.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay,
Mark Massaro:
I’ll
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
okay.
Mark Massaro:
give the audience five more seconds and then I’m gonna reveal it.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
Mark Massaro:
I guess I’m just gonna reveal it because if anybody knows what it is they’re gonna know
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mr.
Mark Massaro:
what it is already.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Belvedere.
Mark Massaro:
Yes!
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What?
Mark Massaro:
Yes,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I got it!
Mark Massaro:
you got it Mr. Belvedere! I sang that song for her and she was like hysterically crying. It was like,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
or laughing, like laugh, crying, you know, it was like, and then I was just laughing so hard because she was laughing. So I’m like, neither one of us could breathe.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh my
Mark Massaro:
It was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
gosh,
Mark Massaro:
just like one of those
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s
Mark Massaro:
just
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
fun.
Mark Massaro:
awesome conversations, you know, and we were just, uh, reminiscing. There was another one I did that just cracked her up, but, um, I’m trying to blank what it was. Was it the Jeffersons? No, I don’t know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh…
Mark Massaro:
Anyways.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
funny.
Mark Massaro:
So. super exciting information that I had to share. But you know, she’s never requested I sing a song so I had to commit and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Of
Mark Massaro:
go
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
course,
Mark Massaro:
for it.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that was great.
Mark Massaro:
You know, I’m trying to be more brave in life
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That was
Mark Massaro:
and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
awesome.
Mark Massaro:
yeah, I’m
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well,
Mark Massaro:
like…
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I think you’re making up for the last like, we haven’t, you know, I think because we’ve had guests, we haven’t really had you singing much. So you’re
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
making up for all those episodes.
Mark Massaro:
Rob mentioned after we recorded,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
he’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.
Mark Massaro:
like, you didn’t even sing a song. I’m like, oh yeah, well, it was your time, you know, but,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, it
Mark Massaro:
um,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
doesn’t usually fit in with a guest, so.
Mark Massaro:
yeah, yeah. Um,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So
Mark Massaro:
dang,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
what else?
Mark Massaro:
I can’t. So yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Anything else we should know about your
Mark Massaro:
Oh,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
life?
Mark Massaro:
that was great. Uh, I just realized how random that was, but I like it. Um.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You know what? They like listening to us because we’re authentic and we’re real and it’s been a while since we haven’t had a guest. So they get to hear us ramble now. That’s how it is.
Mark Massaro:
We’re just rambling.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yep.
Mark Massaro:
We’re just babbling. So,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Babbling, that’s the word.
Mark Massaro:
yeah, you know, there’s not a whole lot that’s been up, nothing much to report. I did have a difficult, and you and I were talking about this before the episode. It was kind of like a resurrection of PTSD. Luke had some teeth removed and they had to put him to sleep.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
And gosh, I’m already getting all emotional thinking about it. So they said,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
OK, dad, we’re going to take him. And they had just put the IV in his arm to give him the sleeping medication.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
And he was looking. There was all these people around
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
him, all these doctors and nurses. You know what I mean? The whole dental staff, there were six people around him. And they were all, everybody’s all talking to him. Oh, hey, look over here. Because they didn’t want him to look at what the dentist was doing.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
And. And they said, okay, dad, we’re gonna take you out to the waiting room. And I was like, oh, you don’t want me? And they’re like, no, you shouldn’t. We don’t want you to stay for this part or whatever. And I was like, okay. And so I gave him a kiss and he was just looking all around, looking at everybody, and he looked so confused and afraid.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh.
Mark Massaro:
And then I walked out of the room and closed the door and I could see through the little six inch wide window on the door, like the… Sorry, your microphone’s really loud. No,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Sorry.
Mark Massaro:
it’s okay. I just, yeah. So I just saw through this like sliver of the window, like his face and he looked so afraid and I just lost it. It just took me
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Aww.
Mark Massaro:
back and I was so afraid and I walked out to the lobby and I was like totally crying and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
Mark Massaro:
I was like, oh my gosh. And then I was like trying to hold it in.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
but it was like coming out more and I was just sitting there and just like fixating my eyes up on the ceiling, trying to like stop crying and pull it together. Cause like they do this all the time, but like I needed
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
to hear from the dental assistant on the way out. I was like, hey, this is like safe, right? And she’s like, yes, we do it like all
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
the time. And it was just one of those like I felt I needed to say, cause I was embarrassed, you know, but I was like, I’m sorry, I just, I lost my wife to cancer and this stuff just scares me, you know, and. She was like, okay, no, I understand. And like, we’re gonna take really good care of him and he’s gonna be okay. He’s gonna be all right. We’ll come out and get you as soon as it’s done. And then this lady in the lobby was like staring at me cause I had like tears rolling down my face. And I’m like, oh my gosh, like it was just, it was weird.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow,
Mark Massaro:
Cause it totally
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.
Mark Massaro:
was this like PTSD feeling that came over. I was so afraid. And it was like, I just knew, I just knew that something bad was gonna happen. And so anyways.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
Mark Massaro:
I just kind of want to share that, but
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
that’s one of the things that’s been up with me, but I know you had some relatable stuff, but I don’t know when you want to talk about that, so what’s been up
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
with you?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
no, I’ll start with my thing that was like that and then I’ll move to happier things. So I had my first, what I think is my first PTSD moment. Joel and I were downtown Portland and there were a lot of homeless downtown Portland. And this guy like walked up to us kind of like we were just walking on the sidewalk was like almost 10 o’clock at night, we’re going to go home. We’d have this great night walking around this bookstore and out to eat and just had a great night. And This guy said, can you please call 9-1-1? I don’t have a phone. This guy’s dying. And we’re like, what? And we just keep walking with him. And there’s a guy, I believe, overdosed on drugs on the side of the road and on the sidewalk. And the guy that was talking to us just starts giving him mouth to mouth. And so Joel calls 9-1-1. And he puts it on speaker and the ladies telling them what to do, like chest compressions, like breathe in two, three, you know, all the things and the guys doing it, listening to her. And it was just like a weird, surreal moment. Like I just kind of stood on the sidewalk, like back a little bit and there were people starting to kind of crowd around and I just had to like Joel was right in there because he had the phone. It was trying to make sure the guy heard it. And it was, it just brought me back. I haven’t seen someone die or close to dying. I don’t know what happened with this guy. Um, but since. Luke and so it just like I just had flashbacks of Luke dying. And then when the ambulance we actually had to be the ones to like flag them down or kind of don’t it’s kind of like an alley like off the road. And we flagged down the ambulance and the fire trucks and all that and then I had all of these moments because I had to call. I don’t know five to 10 times call the ambulance over this series of our marriage of all the things that Luke went through and there was just this
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
feeling of emergency and this feeling of dying like just came over me. And, um, we left and we don’t know what happened. We, you know, they got him Narcan, which I had to look up what that was, but it helps against, um, drugs if you’ve overdosed. And so hopefully somebody like, they just went down the street yelling, does anybody have it? And they found one. Um, so hopefully it saved his life. And, um, when we got in the car, Joel’s like, let’s pray for him. And I’m like bawling and he doesn’t understand what’s happening with me. He just says, I’m sure he’s going to be okay. And then I just started like hyperventilating. Like I couldn’t like, and I just couldn’t breathe. He’s like not knowing what’s going on with me. And it just was like, I just, every memory I ever had of Luke with all of his ambulances coming and all the feeling and just that feeling of death and emergency, like something’s wrong. You got to call everybody just came over me. And eventually, and maybe it didn’t last that long, five to 10 minutes. And I was able to talk to Joel and explain I’m having memories of Luke. I’m seeing him die in my head. And I’m seeing every time I called the ambulance, you know, then he was able to just listen to me. Um, and so I shared that actually at my grief group where I’m the leader, but I share things too. And one of the girls is like, I think that was PTSD. Cause I was like, yeah, it wasn’t grief, like sadness. It was just like this weird feeling. And so that was definitely difficult. Um, but apparently that, you know, that happens to people. So that’s one
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thing. that’s happened to me recently, but I’d love to move on to some happier things. Let’s see.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
One of my really good friends, Patty, who’s also a widow, just got married. So that was super exciting. She has a similar story to me and Joel, her and her now husband. They met when they were six in elementary school and
Mark Massaro:
Oh.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
they had like, yeah, crazy and they’re in their sixties
Mark Massaro:
Wow,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and they had like
Mark Massaro:
that’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
crushes
Mark Massaro:
cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
on each
Mark Massaro:
Hehehehe.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
other. Yeah. And then they met, re-met two or three years ago, I was right before me and Joel, they met at a class reunion, remet, and then they got engaged like right after Joel and I have very similar stories, and she’s someone who helped me through after Luke died. And so it was just like, as soon as I saw her, I’m like starting to cry, just like knowing her story.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And you know, and plus a lot of my wedding stuff I passed onto her, so it was in her wedding, like just, it
Mark Massaro:
Oh
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was
Mark Massaro:
nice.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really beautiful. She was even wearing the bracelet I wore, and like she had my decorations, and it was just something we love that we have in common. We met like years ago at a school that we were both working at. We connected over writing and we like did writing stuff together. And then, you know, long then I lost my husband, you know, it’s just this crazy connection anyways, the wedding was amazing and beautiful and just like, I was just so happy for her. So that’s something fun that happened. And
Mark Massaro:
That’s cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah. And it was just fun having, um, Joel as my date. Um, he like rushed to be there. He took the boys. So there was like a whitewater rafting trip with our church. So he took his son and my two sons, and it was like a three hour drive, and they drove on their own so he could be back in time for the wedding. So he was exhausted, but he came anyways and danced with me and all the things. And it was just,
Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
he made me feel special. And then two of my good friends, Stacey and Becca were also at the wedding, and they both told me separately how much they loved seeing us together, and just how beautiful it is, and how much he loves me, and you know,
Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.
Mark Massaro:
He’s such a good dude.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
He is, he is, yeah. And I guess
Mark Massaro:
That’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one of them
Mark Massaro:
cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was telling the other one, like, you need a guy like Joel. And I was like, I agree. I’m sorry
Mark Massaro:
Hehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I took him, but there are other ones out there.
Mark Massaro:
You know, so that’s cool. So your friend, Patty, you said?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
So how long ago was she widowed?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It was a long time ago, maybe 15 years,
Mark Massaro:
Okay, okay.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
something, maybe 10, 15. And it was way before me.
Mark Massaro:
Okay, I gotcha.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So it had been, it had been a while and she’d had some relationships and things, but nothing like David, her new husband. So
Mark Massaro:
So David
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.
Mark Massaro:
doesn’t have cooties anymore?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I guess not. Yeah. No, it’s
Mark Massaro:
Ha ha
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
such
Mark Massaro:
ha. Dang,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a cute
Mark Massaro:
six
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
story.
Mark Massaro:
years old. Sorry, I was still like kind of spacing out thinking about
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
that. That’s like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
six
Mark Massaro:
really
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
years
Mark Massaro:
cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
old, and I think they’re early 60s, mid 60s, something in there. Yeah. So
Mark Massaro:
That’s awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah, it was just a wonderful, wonderful story.
Mark Massaro:
But I’m sorry, you were talking, I was thinking about that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I don’t know. It was just wonderful. And she wanted, I gave her like this, she wanted to do the same thing as me. It’s my bachelor party. So I gave her my like cowboy hat to said bride and we went line dancing and it was just, it was fun. It was like doing the same things we did for my wedding.
Mark Massaro:
That’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And
Mark Massaro:
so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I really
Mark Massaro:
cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
enjoyed it. And um, but something not great, Joel lost his wedding ring. I’m not very happy
Mark Massaro:
Oh
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
about
Mark Massaro:
no,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that. We were
Mark Massaro:
how’d he
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
running.
Mark Massaro:
lose it?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, we think in the river. So we go to this river
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like every Sunday. It’s part of our tradition now. Like it’s like a mile from our house. We found this cute little river. We’re usually by ourselves, but it wasn’t until Monday we were running and he’s like, where’s my wedding ring? I’m like, I don’t know. And he’s like, it must’ve been in the river. So we went back yesterday with our masks and everything. We did not
Mark Massaro:
Hehehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
find it. I mean, it’s a flowing river, but I
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
mean, it wasn’t, it’s not worth a lot of money, but it was just the point. I’m like, we got married in that, but today I reordered it the exact same ring. So.
Mark Massaro:
Oh,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Whatever.
Mark Massaro:
okay, that’s cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s, you know.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, I lost mine in the ocean in Mexico.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, nice.
Mark Massaro:
But then again, Lacey and I got another one, obviously. But
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
yeah, I was like, thank God it wasn’t your ring.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, that’s what we said too, because mine costs
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a lot more. And
Mark Massaro:
yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
mine has sentimental value of it’s the diamonds from the ring that Luke gave me too. So it would
Mark Massaro:
Oh yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
be like
Mark Massaro:
yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really tragic to lose my ring.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, yep.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So when we were going yesterday, I’m like, I’m taking my ring off that river’s bad luck. I’m leaving my ring here so I do not lose it in the water. So
Mark Massaro:
Hehehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
anyways, that’s, that’s a little side notes. Um, so let’s get into our episode. Um, today we are doing one called don’t tie guilt to your grief. Let’s think about that for a minute. Don’t tie guilt to your grief. So I was just talking about how many, you know, I do grief recovery. I work with tons of widows and the biggest emotion, not just widows, other grief. The biggest emotion I see from them is guilt. And I had it myself. I feel guilt for this. Could I have done something different? Like, would he have lived if I would have done this? And that’s almost every time what they say to me too. Like, oh, could I have done this differently? And so we’re going to talk about releasing that and not holding onto that. So what does that title mean to you, Mar? Don’t tie grief to your
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
guilts.
Mark Massaro:
Well,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I mean guilt to your grief. Whoops.
Mark Massaro:
right, right. So a couple of interesting things. So, and I’m just kind of formulating this now, obviously, but you will feel guilt all on your own. Also, people will make you feel guilty
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh
Mark Massaro:
for
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.
Mark Massaro:
things. It’s unintentional. It’s little things they say or the way they act towards you or the way they’re different towards you. Um, but you can feel it, you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
and then that causes you to feel guilt too. So there’s lots of, I feel like there’s lots of ways surrounding, because first of all, you can feel guilt about their death.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
You can feel guilt about things you’re doing after their death, things you’re not doing after their death, the way you’re living your life, even as something as simple as, and we’ve talked about this before, laughing at something. Remember
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm,
Mark Massaro:
we’ve
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah,
Mark Massaro:
talked about that?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes.
Mark Massaro:
Like I remember the first time I was at somebody’s house and they invited me over for dinner after Lacey died and somebody said something funny and I wanted to laugh but I felt like I wasn’t allowed to.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
I felt like I needed to perform.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
Like I always need to be sad and grieving.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
And I’m glad that I kind of like realized and got over that because you first of all you can’t make yourself feel guilty for one
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
you can’t do that to yourself because it will haunt you and we all go through it but you have to get out of it you know
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
and um so i mean that i guess that’s just kind of opening the door what about you
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Well, I was just thinking about the other thing that widows tell me all the time is that I don’t feel like, well, first of all, like my class is called grief recovery. And sometimes they say, I don’t feel like I should recover because then it’s like, I didn’t love my spouse. Like,
Mark Massaro:
I’m sorry,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like I’m not
Mark Massaro:
can you hold on one second? I’m
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sure.
Mark Massaro:
so sorry.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s okay.
Mark Massaro:
Yes? I’m recording, please don’t just come and knock on the door non-stop. I’m sorry.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so good and cut it out.
Mark Massaro:
Okay, what? Luke, I’m working. Okay, I just can’t work. Okay, go. I’m so sorry.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s OK.
Mark Massaro:
He literally
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So cute.
Mark Massaro:
was just knock
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s OK.
Mark Massaro:
knock.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
This program makes it easy to delete. It’s all good, because I just push Mark Clip, and then I’ll remember where it is.
Mark Massaro:
That’s cool. And do you remember how to like pick up or start over with what you were saying?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, I’m just meaning I can cut this out. Do you want me to start over? What was I saying?
Mark Massaro:
No, no,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What, what?
Mark Massaro:
not start, but just so it’s like a smooth transition into the edit.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What were we saying? Is that
Mark Massaro:
You
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
what you mean?
Mark Massaro:
yeah you were talking about the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, OK. What I’ve noticed, I’ll just say
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it again.
Mark Massaro:
okay,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
OK,
Mark Massaro:
sorry
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
hold on. That’s OK. Uh, what I’ve noticed a lot with people that I work with, first of all, it’s called grief recovery, right? So they know there’s going to be recovery in it, but sometimes I feel guilty. Like, I don’t think I should recover because then I feel like I’m not really loving him. Like I’ve heard this from several people. I’m not really loving him if I’m recovering because I think I, I need to be feeling this and I have to explain, no, like it doesn’t like people think it’s like a math equation, like the amount of time I spend grieving and feeling awful. Equals the amount I loved my late spouse
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and I’m here to say that’s not true. Like it is not like this Or it’s like one of those old like scales, like you have to have more grief than you have whatever to equal whatever, you know what I’m saying. And
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so the biggest thing is realizing like guilt is not a good emotion and it is not from God. Well, I can’t say that. There are times when we do feel guilty for things. Like
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
if God’s convicting us, that’s a completely different thing. This
Mark Massaro:
Right.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
is like wishing I would have done things differently, better or more. And
Mark Massaro:
Right.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s actually what we talk about in Grief Recovery, different, better, or more. And so it’s releasing those things and not being tied down. Like I see guilt like this, like a wet blanket put on people and it’s just like holding them down from where they want to go and where they want to be because it’s hard to recover if you’re constantly feeling guilty. For example, my big guilt in the very beginning is that all the kids kiss Luke goodbye and I forgot. Like I remember the grandma saying kiss your dad goodbye, blah, after he died. And I just totally forgot. And then that day I was crying all day. Like I feel so guilty. I didn’t kiss him goodbye. My mom’s like, I’m sure you kissed him last night. I’m like, yeah, but I didn’t kiss his body goodbye. You know, and it was just holding me back and make me feel worse. I was already in a horrible place, you know? So I’ve learned obviously since then to release that. And that didn’t even matter. You know, and the guilt of like, could I have stopped his death? Because he had like a pain in his calf. And like, could I have stopped it? talking to the doctor, there was nothing I could have done, releasing the guilt from that, like releasing guilt. So honestly, here’s one I’ve never talked about on air. I had a really unhealthy relationship with a friend and I spent a lot of time talking to her, tons of time talking to her when I could have had time talking with Luke. And so I had to, that was a big one I felt in the beginning, like, man, I wasted time on this friendship when I should have been spending all my husband.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And… really seen the guilt of that. It was just things that weighed me down that were not helpful in my recovery, that were not helpful in my grief journey. And so it’s learning to first recognize those things. You have to know what you’re feeling and then being able to address them. Like, no, I’m not gonna carry this. For us as Christians, we can actually think of those things as physically handing them to Jesus and be like, I’m done. I don’t wanna carry this anymore. Like, I don’t wanna carry this weight. and giving it to him. And sometimes in the beginning, when you have all those guilt feelings, like constantly doing that, or even just saying out loud, stop, I’m not going there. That’s a tool I learned through heart change that I just went through with my family of like when you start having those negative thoughts, like saying out loud, like stop, I’m not going there. Like even if you have to do it out loud.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So those are some ways that I’ve learned to let guilt, like let go of the guilt.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What has helped you? Like, first of all, was there anything you felt guilty about? around Lacey’s death or anything and how did you release it?
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, there was a lot I felt guilty about. Even though it was insanely difficult, I felt guilt for being, like for being frustrated with my life at that point in time. I felt guilt for that. And, you know, of course felt guilt for, I mean, I was going through a lot, but I still felt guilt that I allowed any of what I was feeling. to come out because it should have been all about what Lacey was going through. And so I felt guilt about it. But you know, I’m human and I was going through
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
hell. Even though
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yup.
Mark Massaro:
I wasn’t the one with cancer, I was going through hell. But I felt guilt about that. I felt guilt because for whatever it was, I think it was 14 and a half, 15 months straight, I was by her side, by her side, night and day, round the clock, all day, all night, right by her side.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
And of course, but so of course there are moments I stepped away to do this or do that. I was still raising two kids, still had two dogs, still had to make food, blah, blah. But for the most part, I was at her side 90% of the day and night. So I stepped out from the room as you know, you probably remember me saying from episode
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
one to go have a cup of coffee and answer some text messages and I was gone 15 minutes and came back to the room and she was gone. And like I said, I already knew she was gone, but that’s not what I’m talking about. That was all in episode one, if you wanna hear that story. But she was gone. I stepped out of the room for 15 minutes and she passed away and I couldn’t help but wondering, I mean, I didn’t hear anything, so I doubt it. And I know the state she was in, but I just couldn’t help but notice, did she like, or I mean, help but wonder, did she? wake up and look around for me
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
right before she died or did she like, you know, reach out for me or call for me or whatever, I don’t know. You know, so I felt guilt about not being in there when she passed or, you know, you hear all these stories about people, when people watch somebody die, you can see this like huge smile come on their face like we’ve heard
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
or something like that. And I’m like, did I miss something like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
that? Like, gosh, why did I have to get that cup of coffee right then? Like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
All
Mark Massaro:
out
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right.
Mark Massaro:
of all the time and at that time, thank God, my kids weren’t even at my house.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
So I literally could have waited 15, 20 more minutes. Like I just chose to leave the room at that time. So I felt guilt about that. Of course there was guilt about being interested in dating again, you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah.
Mark Massaro:
all that stuff, right? But so I wrote this Facebook post and I think you actually commented, I know you saw it,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
but… I’m writing this out of gratitude but need to convey how I got here. Seasons
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
change. I can’t ever seem to find the words to express just how difficult the year 2020 was. My sweet bride was so courageous in battling cancer. She fought hard with tremendous faith. She was truly a warrior. I am well aware that she was the one who was really going through it. That being said, I was fighting my own battle that consisted of never getting any sleep, 24 hour care, hardly eating. I hate the word keto. anxiety
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
and panic attacks, watching my bride suffer greatly, extreme fear, raising kids alone while being a caregiver, hiding my fears from my kids, hiding my fears from my wife, heavy depression, loneliness, sadness, mental exhaustion, physical exhaustion, spiritual exhaustion, hopelessness, helplessness, desperation, weakness, PTSD, intense and overwhelming grief and devastation. This all scratches the surface, it’s just too hard to express what it was like. On top of all of this was a pandemic, a pandemic in one of the worst states to go through it in. Life as I knew it was completely over. What a dark and horrible season for all involved. I hated my life. I have amazing friends and family that loved me and supported me through it. No matter how much people supported me, and it was a lot, I was still alone most of the time. I don’t just mean physically alone, I also mean things like decisions, and thoughts, fears, anxieties, and depression. I never wanted to burden anyone with what I was feeling. Their lives were still normal, and I felt guilt in sharing the darkness I felt. Seasons change. Now, just shy of three years later, I am incredibly happy.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
You can miss someone intensely but still move forward.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
Some people may think that because I am happy that I don’t miss Lacey anymore. Some people may think that I am over her because I have found great love again. That is not and never will be the case.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
I have accepted my reality but still love her. I think about her and miss her every single day. Healthy people move forward in life and take their memories with them. What kind of father would I be if I quit on life? What kind of Christian would I be if I stopped loving the world? I have heard things like, I’m
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
glad you found someone, but I could never date again if my
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
spouse died. I said the same thing, but that is easy to say when your spouse is alive. When
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
you actually go through it, at first it’s absolutely devastating. You go through grief that you can’t comprehend unless you’ve lived it. Your best friend, your co-parent, your confidant, your everything, your world is gone. Your life is gone. You are all alone. The silence is extremely loud. Day and night you live this way. Everyone around you, their life goes on. What feels like a short time for them is an eternity for you. You
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
now sleep alone, eat alone, watch TV alone, raise kids alone, make decisions alone, and and have nobody to bounce ideas off of or share your life with. Nobody cares the way your spouse did. The inside jokes are gone, the comfort, security, and love is missing, and the plans are over. Some people will judge seemingly everything you do. Those people are just wired that way. Shake it off and find your own happiness. You are just looking to find some kind of normalcy and joy again. There’s nothing wrong with that, and your true friends will want that for you. I’m so thankful to the friends and family who have been so happy for and supportive of me. You are beautiful and kind hearted people. When you go through difficult seasons, you become so overwhelmed with gratitude to find joy again. You feel so thankful to find normalcy and happiness. The smallest things become so meaningful. Simple conversations with your new person feel like such a treasure. I’m so thankful for the beautiful woman in my life
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
that loves me and my kids. She is truly wonderful. And then I just have to give her this shout out. Tina you are an incredible woman who loves really well. You make me feel so special. I know you understand all of this that I wrote very deeply. I hate what we had to endure to get here, but I’m so thankful for you. Thank you for being the reason that I’m happy. Thank you for restoring joy to my heart and soul. Thank you for choosing me and putting your trust in me for your own happiness. Thank you for sharing your love with me. You are a true treasure and a rare gem. I love you very much. Seasons change indeed.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
So. I wanted to read all of that. Sorry, I know that was super long,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No, it’s
Mark Massaro:
but
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
wonderful.
Mark Massaro:
I was writing that when I wrote that. I wanted to share something nice about Tina and how happy I was in life. But I want people to understand how you could get to this point again.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
And because we’ve all talked about that, that like, people are going to assume that because you’re so happy with Joel,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh huh,
Mark Massaro:
it
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right.
Mark Massaro:
means you don’t love Luke anymore.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right, not
Mark Massaro:
And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
true.
Mark Massaro:
like, I wanted
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
to address that for the people that didn’t know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
And so. I hope that helped somebody, that’s why I wanted
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes,
Mark Massaro:
to share it.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
no, that’s really beautiful. You are a very gifted writer. Like you
Mark Massaro:
Hmm,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really
Mark Massaro:
thank you.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
are. You have a way of just conveying all that. So I was going to ask you what inspired that, but you explained that you want to say something
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
nice about Tina, but needed to say all of that.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Um,
Mark Massaro:
and for her sake, I feel like for I wanted her people to hear that too and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
just know that she hasn’t forgotten about John at all
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Exactly.
Mark Massaro:
that she still cries about him. She she still loves him so much and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right?
Mark Massaro:
but this wasn’t her choice. You know, she didn’t choose this. None of us chose this. So that was my inspiration is that. I don’t want anybody to judge her for being in love again. I don’t want anybody to judge me for being in love again or you or anybody for that matter
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
that’s listening. It’s not fair, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
Like it’s not fair to be upset at somebody or judging them. So anyways, that was my
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
inspiration for writing all that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, that’s
Mark Massaro:
huge
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really…
Mark Massaro:
seven minute reading.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No, it’s
Mark Massaro:
No, I don’t know
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really,
Mark Massaro:
how long it took, but oh gosh, my foot’s asleep.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s
Mark Massaro:
Sorry.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really beautiful. And I think it just shows like it’s just people need reminded that you can love again, and still love your late spouse. Like it doesn’t
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
cancel each other out like people think.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Like I still really love and care about Luke even though I’m married again. Like there’s
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
still, there’s still moments I have moments like I had a moment at the wedding. I didn’t even tell Joel. I was talking to Joel and Stacey and a song came on and it was like a song like, um, you know, that big Hawaiian guy, Oz is
Mark Massaro:
Oh yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
whatever it was
Mark Massaro:
yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like his famous song. And it was like
Mark Massaro:
Somewhere
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one.
Mark Massaro:
over
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
the rainbow,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That
Mark Massaro:
is that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one just
Mark Massaro:
it?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like, yes, it was. And that’s what Luke loved that song. And then I had a slideshow made to that. And I was all of a sudden
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
transported. I wasn’t even in their conversation anymore. Back in this moment, feeling a little bit of sadness and
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
missing Luke, even though I’m happily married, having a great time at a wedding with my husband and best friend, I still have those moments. It’s not like that doesn’t ever happen again.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And there’s things, I feel like there was something else recently too that I was like, oh. Oh, I know. We borrowed. Joel and I wanted to go paddle boarding, but his son had his truck. And so we borrowed Hayden’s truck, which was Luke’s truck. And I don’t think I’ve ever, I think maybe one other time, I don’t really remember it, that Joel drove me like a long time ago, but it was just like all of a sudden I’m like, I am in Luke’s truck with Joel driving. Like it just felt weird
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
all of a sudden. And I’m looking through, we actually have all of his old CDs, like from the 90s when you would burn them or 2000s. And it has his writing on them. And so I’m like,
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Looking through these CDs with Luke’s riding with Joel driving in the truck and I just had a moment And so I told that to Joel just kind of kind of feels weird right now Like that i’m with you in Luke’s truck like you
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know
Mark Massaro:
I mean I could see that for sure.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah
Mark Massaro:
I mean I sold Lacey’s car to one of my friends
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
and it was really weird seeing it at church. I mean I was thankful.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah.
Mark Massaro:
I was able to help him out by giving him a good deal. He was able to help me out by buying the car. But it was like weird seeing it driving around town. Like that was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m
Mark Massaro:
Lacey’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sure.
Mark Massaro:
car. It was very noticeable. Like I had
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
certain things added to the car like aesthetics that like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
Um, you know, it really stood out against other Subaru imprezas or whatever. Um, I had like the roof racks and all these other things. So, um, so anyways, yeah, it is, it can be weird. It can be
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
really weird. Cause you’re like, oh, there’s Lacey. Oh wait.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Um, my friend Tamara actually, uh, she didn’t know that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
Mark Massaro:
I sold them that car.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh.
Mark Massaro:
And so, uh, so my friend’s wife, uh, Stephanie. called Tamara about something and she said, oh, I’ll just drop it off. I’ll be over there in a minute. So Stephanie came pulling up in Tamara’s driveway in Lacey’s car
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
Mark Massaro:
and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
weird.
Mark Massaro:
Tamara was like, oh my God. Oh, and she’s all for
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm,
Mark Massaro:
like a split second.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right.
Mark Massaro:
I thought Lacey was at my house and she’s like, I just started crying and yeah. And so, yeah, that stuff can be weird. Sorry.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm. No, it’s
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
okay
Mark Massaro:
was just reminded me. It can be weird.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes. Um, so I just looked up the definition of guilt. Guilt is an emotional discomfort you feel when you believe that you were responsible for something that offended or hurts someone else. Guilt can be legitimate. You may have made a mistake and you regret your words or action causing you to feel guilty. Um,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
but I would say in the case of people dying, it’s usually nothing you could have done, like nothing
Mark Massaro:
Right.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you could have done to change the, you know, how things happened. God says that our days are numbered. He knows exactly. So there’s nothing we could have magically done to stop it. You know?
Mark Massaro:
That’s what I always reference too.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Well, so how about you? What were some more things you felt grief, guilt about?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Um, I mean those ones that I mentioned definitely,
Mark Massaro:
Right.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
um, the first time like that I talked to a guy, um, it was like Facebook dating app or something and didn’t even talk like just texting. I remember like, I feel like I’m cheating. I remember
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that feeling guilty over that. But again, that’s, that’s not true. Like I fulfilled my vows. He was gone. Um, Just really some of those things, I can’t think of like any more big things right now,
Mark Massaro:
Right, right.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
but it was just yeah, like that I didn’t kiss him goodbye and just those other things that I like, could I have stopped his death? Could I have done anything differently? I wish I would have spent more time with him. Um, but you know, it just was like releasing those things and realizing that there’s nothing I might could have
Mark Massaro:
Well,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
done.
Mark Massaro:
I’m curious if you felt this. I remember feeling this and I don’t know if it would be applicable, but I felt guilt that it was her and not me. Because I felt like she was much better suited to be a single mom than I was to be a single dad. Like in the, not necessarily, but like for the kids, for
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
the kid’s sake, I felt like. This is weird and I don’t mean this in any like pity party kind of way or anything like that, but just that like she comes from a lot bigger family than I do.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
There’s more people, I don’t mean this in any like you know pity way, but like it’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
just the reality. She comes from a much bigger family. There are a lot more people who grieved her loss than
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
would mine if that makes sense and I don’t mean that in any I mean I’m I don’t mean that in any way to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
like feel sorry for myself. I just, that’s the reality she has cousins and uncles and aunts and grandparents that are still, you know, nephews and nieces and all that, you know, they’re all my family too through marriage. Then they are my family. You know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
I definitely consider them my family, but you know, Lacey is their blood and they grew up with it. You should grow up with it. You know what I mean? And so I remember feeling like, gosh, like it should have been me
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
like, and she lived a much better life than I did. It would have made sense with my past that I got
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
cancer. Um, to me, I mean, I wouldn’t have liked it, of course, but like, it didn’t make sense. She was, she was always so health conscious. I mean, she loved sugar, but she was always so health conscious. She’d always out for hikes, walking. Like she was a beast. She was a powerhouse. She was, you know, charge huge still hills with a
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
double stroller and two dogs and a baby on her back or whatever, you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
like. She was very active and so I don’t know anyways. So I just wondered, did you have anything
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
like that where that he had it and you didn’t or something? Uh-huh.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Honestly, no. Maybe because he was sick our whole marriage. And
Mark Massaro:
That’s right.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so I was the one doing, I mean, he did everything he could, but I’m the one who did most of the taking care of the kids and all that stuff. And
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so I didn’t have that. But if I would have known him healthy, probably.
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
But that’s all I knew 16 and a half out of 17 years, he was sick.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So
Mark Massaro:
that’s so crazy.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s a different situation.
Mark Massaro:
Sure.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So I don’t know what he would have been like when he’s healthy
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and what I know things he wanted to do. And he did as much as he could with coming to baseball games and plays and all the stuff when he could. But I didn’t actually really think that because I was the one who did everything, which makes me feel a little bit guilty
Mark Massaro:
No, no, it makes
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that
Mark Massaro:
sense. We,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I
Mark Massaro:
I mean,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
didn’t
Mark Massaro:
we have
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
think
Mark Massaro:
different
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that.
Mark Massaro:
roles, you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
we had, I mean, you are the mother, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
So of course it is different. And like you said, he was sick most of your marriage. So that makes, I was just curious. I was curious
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
if that would like, you know, kind of remind you of anything you felt like, like some weird guilt. So to me,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
that’s one of the weird, all the other guilts I felt were like, I think normal. That one
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
was kind of a weird one. Um, it was just like, why her? Like, why not me? And don’t get me wrong. Like I love life. I don’t want to, but you know, that’s what a husband’s supposed to do.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm. Oh.
Mark Massaro:
I would have absolutely been willing to take her place in a heartbeat.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
Um, of course I don’t want to be sick and dying of cancer, but to, if I could, instead of seeing her go through it, like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
me go through it, I would choose that in a heartbeat and I think any man that loves his wife would, I mean, that’s what laying down your life for your wife is. Right.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Um, And so it’s, I guess that might be something that comes along with it too, is that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
like as men we’re the protectors. And so to, and I don’t mean women can’t protect themselves, I’m not saying anything,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
but you know what I mean, generally
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
speaking, like if there’s a noise in the house, like go check
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
it out, honey, you know, she’s going to be sending the man downstairs. And I know there’s a lot of women that can do that, but I’m just saying generally speaking, that’s kind of how it is. And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
so anyways, that’s,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I thought
Mark Massaro:
it
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
of
Mark Massaro:
makes
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
another
Mark Massaro:
sense,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one.
Mark Massaro:
you know, yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I did feel guilty when I sold the house because
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I remember him saying, like knowing he was dying, I remember him saying, this is going to be a good forever house for you and the kids. I was like,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
uh-huh, even I already knew I was going to move, but I wasn’t going to tell him that. And like he was like, even though it was like, it was our starter house, like little 1400 square feet, three bedrooms. And the plan was always to move out, but because of sickness and all the things we never could afford it. And, but I knew that when he died, I wanted to move closer to my family, which is only like 20 minutes away, but I wanted to be more out in the country where everybody was. And that’s what I did. I moved like less than two miles from my entire family. And I’m so glad I did. remember when I was signing the papers and leaving for the last time I felt guilty but how I came to peace with it was like we have this big beautiful house more in the country because of Luke’s smart choices that he lived in his parents basement telling he was 25 saving up money for the down payment on that house and because of his smartness with you know we had 17 years of equity we were able to afford a nice house and I tell the kids that all the time we have this nice house because of your dad because
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
of his smart choices and saving money and he didn’t pay money on rent, he lived with his parents so that he could afford to do the sound payment that I couldn’t have done. And so
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s kind of how I got through that is like, no, it doesn’t matter in that state. He was just thinking that we just live there forever, whatever.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
But you know, we’re the hard work he did lives on in this house. But that
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
definitely was something that I felt guilt about, because
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
he had he had assumed we were going to just stay living there. Um, but I knew that I wanted to leave and especially
Mark Massaro:
Yeah. He died
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
because
Mark Massaro:
in the house.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
he died in the house. I wanted to leave
Mark Massaro:
Yep. And I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and
Mark Massaro:
had
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know
Mark Massaro:
that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you
Mark Massaro:
too.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
get that. Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Yep. I wouldn’t say I had guilt about it. I was actually, I was very thankful that I was able to, like you said, that I was able to, you know, that I was in a position to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
make a choice like that. But yeah, it was like, it seemed like no matter what I did, I just couldn’t get away from it. You know, it was just, It felt like this thing
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
that was just the shadow, this cloud, like that was just over my whole existence in that city. And California is expensive and I just wanted to move my kids to another state and all these other things. But so, so kind of like what you’re saying, like I didn’t, I didn’t feel guilt about that. I did feel some guilt about, you know, I didn’t want to move my kids away from their grandparents
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
and things
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
like that. But at the same time, like I had to ultimately do what I thought was best for them. And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
that was a hard decision to make, you know? Um, but I did feel like the Lord was telling me, yes, do it, do it, do it,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
do it. Um, but so the point of what we’re talking about is not tying.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
Guilt to your grief. So I would recommend you feel grief. And like you separate. separate
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
grief from guilt don’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah. You got
Mark Massaro:
let
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to
Mark Massaro:
the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
keep
Mark Massaro:
two
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
them
Mark Massaro:
things
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
separated. I just had to do
Mark Massaro:
hey
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it. Hey,
Mark Massaro:
don’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you got
Mark Massaro:
pay
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to
Mark Massaro:
no mind you’re under 18 you won’t be doing any time
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
keep them separated. I’m going to keep
Mark Massaro:
hey
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
them separated.
Mark Massaro:
come out
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Come
Mark Massaro:
and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
out
Mark Massaro:
play
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and play. OK, we haven’t had like a duet song in a while, so. There we
Mark Massaro:
Deer-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-nee-
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
go, audience. Nee, nee, nee. Okay, back to keep them separate. I just had to, like it was too good of words to just. Ladies. What? Is that part of the song?
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, I’m like, these are weird words, okay.
Mark Massaro:
Oh, sorry.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Anyways,
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’ll
Mark Massaro:
was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
let
Mark Massaro:
about
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you
Mark Massaro:
to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
get
Mark Massaro:
sing
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
back
Mark Massaro:
again,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to
Mark Massaro:
but yeah, going
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
keep
Mark Massaro:
back
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
them
Mark Massaro:
to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
separated.
Mark Massaro:
it,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay,
Mark Massaro:
you
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
keep
Mark Massaro:
got to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
them
Mark Massaro:
keep
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
separated.
Mark Massaro:
them separated. That was a good one. I didn’t even pick up on it. So that really like, I was like, yeah, that’s good. So yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Sorry,
Mark Massaro:
so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes.
Mark Massaro:
you, when you’re feeling grief,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Great, yes.
Mark Massaro:
that is a heavy and intense enough feeling
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
all by itself.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
true.
Mark Massaro:
Try to separate guilt from that, if that makes sense. Try to feel them separately. Don’t.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Keep em’ zubberin’ You know, it’s just
Mark Massaro:
I felt
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
in
Mark Massaro:
like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
my head
Mark Massaro:
I saw you that you were about to do it. But so I just feel like that’s really important for people to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
think about because if you start attaching guilt to your grief, that’s gonna stick with you. You have to understand those are two separate things. Grief is real.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Guilt is created.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You just created. Oh, that’s good.
Mark Massaro:
You’re making up guilt in your head. You know, I mean,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
True.
Mark Massaro:
obviously there are situations, right? There
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right,
Mark Massaro:
are situations
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right.
Mark Massaro:
where somebody might actually feel guilty if like, say the last time you talked to them, it was some huge fight that you guys got into or whatever.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
Like, of course, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about fabricated guilt.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
If you’re, you know, whatever timeline you decide and you start dating again.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
When I started dating Tina, it was really hard for her at first and I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
even told her I said hey Like I’ll just be whatever you want me to be. I’ll be your friend. Like I’ll be whatever you want to be Please don’t feel it. I understand. Please don’t feel any Need to rush anything like I’m right here I will be a really good friend to you if that’s all you want me to be like no problem and Because she had a hard time with it. It was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
really hard for her. It was a struggle for her to start even considering having feelings for somebody else. She felt it, but she felt guilty about it
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm
Mark Massaro:
and almost, you know, like wasn’t sure if she wanted to feel it because she just felt so much love and loyalty to her husband. And of course, right. And so, um, that’s all I just got. And what, what do you think about that? I think that that’s a good,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
you know, approach is that grief is real
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
and guilt is fabricated.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s good. I
Mark Massaro:
So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like
Mark Massaro:
don’t tie
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it.
Mark Massaro:
them together because then every time you feel grief, you’re going to feel guilt.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm,
Mark Massaro:
So don’t link
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
or
Mark Massaro:
those.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you can like instead like not tie him you can just make one disappear like try to release the guilt So it’s not
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
even part of your life. I guess you could separate him and release like
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m doing the motions for those of you not watching on YouTube. Or did you know, side note, we are on Spotify video. So there.
Mark Massaro:
I did not know that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah. So that’s why now when I upload it, it goes like you see a video and it does so it does video and then audio everywhere else. But if you’re a Spotify listener, you can see our faces right now. Just wanted you to know that. Okay. Side
Mark Massaro:
Magic.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
note, side note, but my point was separate and then try to really skills. There it is.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, yep,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yep.
Mark Massaro:
that’s really good.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You know, here’s another little side note. Like you could even, well, it’s not a side note cause it goes with this. Write the things that you’re feeling guilty on a piece of paper and
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
burn it. Like I know it sounds like dumb. If you have a burn band going on, maybe just rip it. There’s a lot of burn bands in the summer, but I’m just
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
saying like do something to get rid of it. It will help you.
Mark Massaro:
I forgot about burn bands.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah. You’re like, what? They’re big
Mark Massaro:
Cause I’m
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
in Washington.
Mark Massaro:
in Tennessee now and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
it rains like I think 160 days out of the year.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow, that might be more than Washington or about the same. Hmm, interesting. So I’m
Mark Massaro:
I don’t know. Well,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
going to
Mark Massaro:
so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
go ahead
Mark Massaro:
for
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and start
Mark Massaro:
us, it’s like summer storms, like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah, I
Mark Massaro:
it’s,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
don’t have
Mark Massaro:
which
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that.
Mark Massaro:
is weird. I, when I think of, I still, you know, I’ve been here a year and a half. When I think of summer, I think of beach, sunshine,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
you know, and there’s obviously a lot of that, but like here there’s like intense thunderstorms and it’ll
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
just start pouring rain in the middle of the summer and it’s because of the humidity. But
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah.
Mark Massaro:
you know, I’m, I’m like, you could tell I’m new here cause I’m the one that’s always like. you know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
peering out my, I’m like, it’s raining, you know? Kidder was like, yeah. I’m like,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh huh.
Mark Massaro:
no, it’s like raining really hard. And they’re like, uh-huh. I’m like, oh, I’m from Southern California. This happens like three to five times a year. And it’s not like this, you know? No, but California’s had some crazy rain last couple of seasons, but anyways, so.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Anyways,
Mark Massaro:
What was I talking about?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I don’t know, burn bands?
Mark Massaro:
No. Burn bands, yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Keep
Mark Massaro:
thanks.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
them
Mark Massaro:
Cause
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
separated.
Mark Massaro:
I forgot about that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, burn
Mark Massaro:
It was like,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the
Mark Massaro:
oh
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
guilt
Mark Massaro:
yeah, we’re not
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
paper.
Mark Massaro:
allowed to have, yeah, burn the guilt paper, there you go.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes,
Mark Massaro:
Way
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
anyways,
Mark Massaro:
to get back on track.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes, that’s where I think we’re good. Anything else to say on this subject?
Mark Massaro:
Nope, just don’t do it to yourself, burn it.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Burn it. Burn.
Mark Massaro:
Just really think about it. What do you have to feel guilty for? Let’s say, for example, that you do wanna start dating again. Other people might make you feel guilty, but you yourself, why do you need to feel guilt about it? It’s okay if you do,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And it’s okay if you
Mark Massaro:
but
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
don’t.
Mark Massaro:
if there’s just no reason to, there’s no reason to, there’s nothing wrong. And I want everybody to hear this. There is nothing wrong with you trying to find some kind of happiness again, some kind of
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm,
Mark Massaro:
normalcy, some
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
true.
Mark Massaro:
kind of joy restored to your life. We only have a limited amount of time on this earth.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
Like when you’re ready and if that’s what you want, like pursue your own happiness, pursue it. And you know, don’t let anybody keep you from trying to find happiness.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s true.
Mark Massaro:
mic drop.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Boom. Hey, do you want to wrap it up in prayer?
Mark Massaro:
Yes,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
All
Mark Massaro:
yes.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right.
Mark Massaro:
Lord, thank you so much for the constant that you are in our lives. Lord, I pray for you to allow us to remove guilt and to recognize that it’s not coming from you and that we’re making it up ourselves and just allow us to feel grief all on its own. and just let that be an independent feeling. You’re so good to us and I pray Lord that you’d be with all of those listening that are going through just such a hard time right now. We know there’s a lot of them. This is one of the most difficult things that somebody can go through in life. One of the most highest stress situations statistically that somebody can go through. Let them feel that you’re right there with them and they can just talk to you and I just pray for everybody listening, Lord, that you would bless them with peace and joy in their lives and you would complete a work of restoration in one way, shape or form in everybody that’s listening. And we ask these things in Jesus’ name, amen.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Amen. So a couple things. If you like this episode, I’m not even going to do Bing. I’m just going
Mark Massaro:
You
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to
Mark Massaro:
have
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
say,
Mark Massaro:
to do Bing.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
well, first, let me say this. It’s even more important that you subscribe. Okay. Click the little subscribe button. So then every time we drop a new episode, go straight to your phone. There’s no thinking about it. It’s just there. And head on over to YouTube if you want and subscribe there. Cause then you can see us, which is really fun. Um, or if you’re on Spotify, you can see us, but if you do like it, you can give us a little thing five stars, apple podcasts, Spotify, anywhere you listen. Um, as you guys can see, we’ve been doing a lot of guests. If you’d like to be a guest, please reach out either on Facebook at widow too soon or um, widow too soon at widow goals.org, you know, all the places, YouTube, you can just make a comment and say, I’d like to be a guest and we’ll be talking. So there’s lots of different ways to do that. We are looking for unique stories because all of our stories are different. and can help someone who may have lost their spouse in a similar way. So if you would
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like to share, please let us know. If you’ve been touched by this ministry, we are a part of Widowgoals Nonprofits, and we provide not only these podcasts and social media support, but we do scholarships for grief recovery, as well as local and someday hopefully national events. So there’s a link below if you’d like to give to. a nonprofit. So thanks again for listening and we look forward to seeing you next time. Bye.
Mark Massaro:
God bless.
