84- Widowed by Suicide with Special Guest Kimberly Koland
In this heartfelt and candid conversation, join us as we delve into the sensitive topics of mental health, marriage, and the devastating loss of a loved one to suicide. Kimberly bravely shares her personal journey, shedding light on the challenges she faced shortly after marrying her husband, Brian.
Discover the power of open dialogue as Kimberly recounts her husband’s struggles with mental health, which were initially kept hidden from her. She discusses the impact of stigma and the lack of awareness surrounding mental health issues within their community and family. Despite their efforts to seek therapy and support, Brian’s condition deteriorated, culminating in a tragic event that forever altered Kimberly’s life.
Throughout the conversation, we confront the misconception that suicide prevents individuals from finding peace and going to heaven. Our speakers challenge this belief by emphasizing the unconditional love and grace offered by God, reminding us that mental illness does not negate salvation.
Join us as we explore themes of faith, grace, and the enduring hope that sustains us in times of deep sorrow. Gain insight into the process of healing and find solace in the shared experiences of those who have faced similar challenges. This conversation aims to raise awareness, foster empathy, and encourage meaningful conversations surrounding mental health.
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health issues or has been affected by suicide, we hope this discussion serves as a source of comfort, encouragement, and a reminder that you are not alone. Let us come together to support one another and spread hope in the face of adversity.
Remember to subscribe to our channel for more inspiring and thought-provoking content. Together, let’s break the silence surrounding mental health and promote understanding and compassion in our communities.
You can reach out to Kimbery on Instagram @hopefullykimberly
If you have been touched by this podcast, please consider donating to the non-profit we are under, Widow Goals. In addition to this podcast, Widow Goals provides Grief Recovery Classes, Social Media support, resources, and local and soon-to-be national events. You can give tax-free here; thank you!
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Transcription of Episode
Mark Massaro:
Welcome to Widowed 2 soon this is Mark Massaro here with another episode here with my friend Michelle Bader Ebisole. Ebber.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wait, you
Mark Massaro:
Ebba.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
said it
Mark Massaro:
Ebba-sole.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
wrong. No,
Mark Massaro:
It’s,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
ever,
kimberly:
ever
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
ever.
kimberly:
so.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So,
Mark Massaro:
it’s new. Ebba-sole.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes.
kimberly:
It’s
Mark Massaro:
Ebbersole.
kimberly:
a good German name.
Mark Massaro:
Sorry, I don’t know why it came out like that. I know your last name Joel, sorry. Anyway,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
so what’s up with you Michelle? How you been doing?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Good. So this is crazy. Yesterday Hayden, my oldest turned 19, and he went skydiving.
Mark Massaro:
Wow,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It
Mark Massaro:
nice.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was, yes. Yeah, he asked me if I wanted to go. I’m like, eh, I mean, I’m not scared, but it’s a lot of money. We’ll just have you go. He just like randomly thought of that. He has like no fear and we all went up there Joel and Grady were at work and they met us up there So the six of us were up there to watch him It was like an hour north of here and he just did it and had so much fun It has like these cool videos and all kinds of stuff. So that was really fun Watching him skydive and I do want to do it cuz Haley’s like I want to do it on my 18th birthday Which will be next year and I’m like, well, I’ll do it on my 25th birthday
Mark Massaro:
Wow,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
plus
Mark Massaro:
you’re
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
20.
Mark Massaro:
getting younger.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know I’m getting younger but on our next birthdays um her and I might go so that would be fun.
Mark Massaro:
That’s cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So that was really cool. I had random grief um I don’t have grief very often but all of a sudden like all the birthday memories I know you guys get this for like kids like the birthday memories pop up and I’m like I was just remembering the day that Hayden was born and he was our first and what that was like with Luke. And then just seeing all these birthday memories and these birthday posts that Luke made about Hayden. But I did something special that I did on Hayley’s birthday. I found a post that Luke had posted. I printed it and put it in a frame like it said, you know, it has the top Luke Bader posted You know, he’s like happy birthday to my big 12 year old and it was this really cute Thing so that was cool. Um Yeah, so that was the biggest thing that’s been happening and then let’s say since I talked to you fourth of July was good We play this game called fire soccer So it’s actually we did on the third of July at my brother’s so you get a roll of toilet paper Douse it with gasoline light on fire and kick it around
Mark Massaro:
Sounds
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and kids
Mark Massaro:
extremely safe.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Kids ages eight and up are allowed to play. So
Mark Massaro:
Wow.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah, but we do it in like sections. Like we had like girls 16 and up and then boys 16 and up and then like eight to 15. Yeah, it was pretty fun. My brother learned it in college. And so it was
Mark Massaro:
That
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
fun.
Mark Massaro:
sounds
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It
Mark Massaro:
like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
was good
Mark Massaro:
the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
times.
Mark Massaro:
appropriate place to learn that. You know, it sounds like you guys are from Tennessee or something,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right,
Mark Massaro:
you know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
probably. Well, he learned it in Texas one year when I was like 20 something. My eyelashes burned off because it hit me in the face. So that was good times.
Mark Massaro:
That’s the kind of things I would expect to happen from a game like that, you know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know but it was really fun and we it’s just like a crazy week because we have like 3rd of July party 4th July and then my two brothers are the fourth I mean the fifth is 6th and Hayden’s the 7th so it’s like party all week so much fun So we’ve been having a great time With the six of us here in this house and extended family and yeah, it’s been good. So
kimberly:
And Miss Michelle, you also went away on a trip, right?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Um, no, but I did go, I know what you’re thinking of heart change.
kimberly:
That’s it.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes. So we did go to this thing called heart change, which was basically, um, Ford. Four days, you and God unplugged from the world. You’re not doing social media and calling people and all of that. You’re just focusing. And it was a really great bonding time for it was the two younger kids and Joel and me. And it was wonderful. And some great things happened within my kids’ hearts and just like altogether. And it was a very great experience. It’s hard, because it’s long days, like 12 hour days. But, and I’ve been through it before, but actually I do want to share this really cool thing. You’re supposed to share at the end of the weekend like what God showed you and I was like well there wasn’t a lot I’ve been through it before but This girl had told me this is like how she like saw me that I was carrying the weight of like the kids on my back So on this Sunday when we share I’m like, hey kids come on my back They’re like what I’m like, no try to get on my back and they’re like pretending to get on it I’m like, this is what God showed me that I was carrying all of their grief and pain and weight and he just wants to of them and he’ll hold them.” And I was
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
like, oh yeah. So
Mark Massaro:
That’s cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that was what God showed me. And there was like this moment where the kids and Joel and I, we all got to speak life into each other and speak really positive things. And Peyton said to Joel, I love that you’re not just my stepdad, you’re my friend. And
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
then Haley said, I love that you know boundaries. You know, my dad’s in heaven. You’ve never tried to replace him, but you’re my friend. And I love how happy you make my mom.
Mark Massaro:
Mmm,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And
Mark Massaro:
that’s awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah, it was it was really beautiful. So
Mark Massaro:
That’s really
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah
Mark Massaro:
cool.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, so anyways enough about me. What’s going on with you mark?
Mark Massaro:
Well, I also celebrated our independence from the British on the 4th of July. It was great.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Nice.
Mark Massaro:
I got to go hang out with the awesome and sweet Tina and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Tina.
Mark Massaro:
hung out with her family on the 4th and that was a really cool experience. Her mom can cook. She, oh my
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm,
Mark Massaro:
gosh, I cannot
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s
Mark Massaro:
even tell
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a bonus.
Mark Massaro:
you how many side dishes and main courses. It was… It was one of those like, so they call it a, and you know, on the West coast, we call it like a barbecue
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
or they call it a cookout
kimberly:
Thank you.
Mark Massaro:
here. So it’s basically
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
A
Mark Massaro:
the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
cookout?
Mark Massaro:
same thing. But,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Interesting.
Mark Massaro:
but so there were so many menu items. It was one of those times where I just like, I didn’t even know where to start. Like I just
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
grabbed the biggest plate I could and just started scooping. So it was awesome. My kids swam. We just had a really good time and stayed at a KOA.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm
Mark Massaro:
which I forgot what that stands for, like camping of America, no, it can’t be camping. Something of America. I don’t know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Kids, kids. I’m
Mark Massaro:
Kids
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
just kidding,
Mark Massaro:
of
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I don’t
Mark Massaro:
America?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know.
Mark Massaro:
Oh, no, I don’t think that’s it. It’s like, uh, it’s campgrounds across the United States, right? So I forgot what it stands for. I used to know somebody’s probably screaming at in the audience right now, but, um, they have these like little cabins that you
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
can get. And so, uh, it was in Kentucky. It was about, I think 45 minutes away from Tina’s house. So it was like, We were able to go back and forth and I was able to meet one of her friends and that was really cool. Like one of her like really, really close friends, you know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Awesome. Wait, did they approve of you?
Mark Massaro:
I think so.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Did you pull out your skateboard and do tricks?
Mark Massaro:
No, I should have, you know, that like automatically wins people over.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Like
Mark Massaro:
But
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
cool points? Uh-huh.
Mark Massaro:
no, but no, she’s she seemed to like me and that was that was cool. And let’s see what else I’ve just been trying to figure out, you know, my new career and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah!
Mark Massaro:
things like that. You know, one thing. So Tina’s late husband’s birthday was also July 7.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I saw that, same
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
as Hayden’s, yeah.
Mark Massaro:
And so that was, you know, that was a hard day for her. And I felt really bad for her. It’s really, it’s a reminder of how hard the distance can be sometimes because,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
um, you know, I wanted to be there for her. I really wanted to like give her hugs and, and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
help her like have somebody there to listen to. I mean, I tried talking to her on the phone as much as we could, but you know, I’m a man, so I need to fix everything. Right. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Uh-huh.
Mark Massaro:
I just, uh, I just really wanted to like be there for her and I just
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
couldn’t, and it was hard, but, um, Also, like I had a grief moment and you know me that those don’t come up all
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
that often, you know I mean, of course, it’s always under the surface, but I had like a pretty intense when I was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
I was praying and All of a sudden like I was praying with Tina We were you know, just having a conversation and started praying and I don’t know it was weird I just had this like visual of Lacey like laughing and smiling and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
Mark Massaro:
I just got like really emotional and like had to like cry really hard and that just hasn’t happened in a while. But like, it goes back to that episode we made, like grief is weird, right? Like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
it can just hit you out of nowhere. Whoa, there’s your microphone.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Her camera fell. So anyways, but you know, thankfully I had Tina to talk to about it and you know, she empathized with me and all that. So it’s been a good last couple of weeks overall. And yeah, just that’s what I’ve been up to. So I mean, you know, you can always think of 20 more things to talk about, but.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Let’s not bore everyone.
Mark Massaro:
Um, let’s not bore everyone. Yeah. So I learned the alphabet backwards. I’m just kidding. I’ve known that for a very long time.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m like, I think I’ve heard you do that before.
Mark Massaro:
Yes.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I think you already knew that.
Mark Massaro:
So I, as funny, funny story real quick, I actually, um, learned that I used to be when I was a kid, I was in Scientology. They offered me a job.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Huh.
Mark Massaro:
and I worked at a Scientology, and one of the things, one of the courses I took, part of it was to learn the alphabet backwards. So I still know it to this day, and I’m still
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s
Mark Massaro:
waiting,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so weird.
Mark Massaro:
I’m still waiting for a police officer to ask me to say
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
my alphabet backwards.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Hasn’t happened yet, but I’m ready. Ha ha.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wait, can you just do it real quick?
Mark Massaro:
Yes, Z
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay,
Mark Massaro:
Y
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
here
Mark Massaro:
X
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
we go.
Mark Massaro:
W V U T S R Q P O N M L K J I H G
kimberly:
Thanks
Mark Massaro:
F
kimberly:
for
Mark Massaro:
E D
kimberly:
watching!
Mark Massaro:
C B A.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow, that’s amazing. Wow,
Mark Massaro:
So yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
talents.
Mark Massaro:
I just learned it three letters at a time. I was like Z Y X, Z Y X, Z Y X, W V U, W V U, W V U, and then
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Ah.
Mark Massaro:
just basically memorized it. It does help when you’re looking up a word in the dictionary to know the alphabet forwards and backwards,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
you
kimberly:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
know?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s really good.
Mark Massaro:
So anyways, but enough about.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m sorry.
Mark Massaro:
unimportant things like knowing the alphabet backwards. Today we have a very special guest with us.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
And so you heard her speak a little bit earlier and were probably like, who else
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh
Mark Massaro:
is there
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
my god.
Mark Massaro:
with them? So we have Kimberly with us today. How are you Kimberly?
kimberly:
I’m doing great.
Mark Massaro:
Awesome, awesome, nice to meet you. So, Kimberly has a very exciting story that, not exciting as in a good way, but just very different from,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
it’s exciting for us in this community because we, Michelle and I always like to get different perspectives of things that people have been through so that more people feel like somebody relates to them, somebody’s been through what they’ve been through. And we have not had anybody with a story like Kimberly’s. So we’re excited to have you here today. And I am really sorry for what you’ve been through. I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
don’t know the story yet, but I do know the gist of it. And I hope that you knew what I meant with exciting. I know it’s not exciting what you’ve been through, but just it’s exciting for us to have a guest with a new perspective.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
So why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and just start there.
kimberly:
Well, hello there, Mark, and hello there, Miss Michelle. And it is kind of exciting. It’s exciting because God is still going to do something. And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
sometimes in the middle of your stress and your disorder, what you feel is chaos. You’re wondering what in the same is going on.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hehehe.
kimberly:
What are you doing, God? I don’t get this, this is not the plan.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right?
kimberly:
But if you believe God at His word. He tells you that he still has a plan. And so therefore it is exciting because
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
kimberly:
my plan evidently sucked.
Mark Massaro:
Hehehehe
kimberly:
And God’s plan is probably a little bit better.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, that makes sense. So how did you meet your husband?
kimberly:
Well, I should have met him at all the teacher conferences that we both went to. That would have been a really great thing to say. Gee, we met
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm
kimberly:
at a teacher conference and it was love at first sight. That is not true. It was on Facebook.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, okay.
Mark Massaro:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hey,
Mark Massaro:
know
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you
Mark Massaro:
somebody
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know what?
Mark Massaro:
that met their spouse like that. Heheheheh.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Me, that’s how Joel and I remet,
kimberly:
I know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so yeah.
kimberly:
I know. That’s why, like, when you, I think I remember when you were sharing that, when you had just, like, started
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
in your romance. And I think that’s great. I think that’s funny. I think God has a sense of humor.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
And
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
so that’s where we met. And he was a principal at, when he died, he had been in education for 30 years.
Mark Massaro:
Wow.
kimberly:
And so this is starting my 30th year
Mark Massaro:
Oh
kimberly:
in
Mark Massaro:
wow.
kimberly:
teaching. So we had a lot in common.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, yeah. And so you guys obviously started dating how long until you guys got married?
kimberly:
We, our first date was at 6.30 in the morning on,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
and it’s…
kimberly:
I know,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I wouldn’t
kimberly:
on
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
do
kimberly:
Memorial
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that.
kimberly:
Day,
Mark Massaro:
Oh wow.
kimberly:
on Memorial Day. And it was to have breakfast and watch the sunrise. And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
kimberly:
so then a year later, we got married on Memorial Day.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
Mark Massaro:
Oh wow,
kimberly:
And it
Mark Massaro:
oh
kimberly:
was,
Mark Massaro:
that’s cool.
kimberly:
he wanted it to be at 6.30 and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
in
kimberly:
I told
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
the morning.
kimberly:
him, no one will come.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, no.
kimberly:
No one will
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
kimberly:
come.
Mark Massaro:
you don’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
true.
Mark Massaro:
hear about a lot of breakfasts at the reception.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No.
kimberly:
That’s what we had. It was great. We had breakfast.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
kimberly:
It was wonderful.
Mark Massaro:
That’s cool. I liked
kimberly:
And it was
Mark Massaro:
that it
kimberly:
cheap.
Mark Massaro:
was unique. Yes.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah
kimberly:
It was cheap. Let’s just be real. Having
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
kimberly:
breakfast for like having a morning wedding with like a brunch or breakfast is much cheaper than an evening wedding with a dinner.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
through.
Mark Massaro:
yeah eggs are a little bit cheaper than prime rib.
kimberly:
Well,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
kimberly:
not yet. Well, now they might not be, but they were then.
Mark Massaro:
Right? Yeah, no kidding. I
kimberly:
So…
Mark Massaro:
never noticed that. Like, all my friends from California were talking about how expensive eggs were. And that never really happened here. So I don’t understand. Maybe there’s more like farms. I don’t know where you live, but so I’m in
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Thank
Mark Massaro:
Tennessee and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you.
Mark Massaro:
it’s,
kimberly:
Okay.
Mark Massaro:
I saw my friends were talking about eggs were like $10 a dozen if you
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What?
Mark Massaro:
could
kimberly:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
even find them. Yeah.
kimberly:
Ours were
Mark Massaro:
They
kimberly:
$5.
Mark Massaro:
showed me pictures.
kimberly:
Yep, ours were $5. And so I just stopped buying eggs. And I just get egg whites because that goes longer.
Mark Massaro:
Oh, okay. Okay. Anyways, um,
kimberly:
Whatever.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hehehe
Mark Massaro:
yeah, it’s just a random thing, but I was, you know, I was still getting like the cage free organic eggs for $5 a dozen, which was like, that’s pretty to me, that seems worth it. But anyways, um, yeah, I never saw the like cheap eggs for 10 to $12 a dozen or whatever. I got a lot of pictures from friends and they were talking about, um, you know, refinancing their house to buy a dozen eggs and things like that. I was like, Oh my gosh, is it really that
kimberly:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
bad? And they’re like, yeah, you can’t even find them. So,
kimberly:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
um,
kimberly:
it’s like doing
Mark Massaro:
I don’t know
kimberly:
drug
Mark Massaro:
if we just
kimberly:
deals.
Mark Massaro:
have more local. Yeah. I don’t know if we just have more local farms here or why, but I never really saw that happen here. Our shelves were always stocked full of eggs.
kimberly:
Very nice.
Mark Massaro:
Um, so that’s random,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Anyways.
Mark Massaro:
but I hope everybody, you know, gets a lot out of that. You know, I hope that brings a lot to the table of healing and things, you know?
kimberly:
Well,
Mark Massaro:
So
kimberly:
it’s
Mark Massaro:
yeah,
kimberly:
a good
Mark Massaro:
so.
kimberly:
memory.
Mark Massaro:
Yes, yes. So anyway, so why don’t you walk us a little bit through what happened, what your marriage was like leading up to, you know, what happened and actually what happened.
kimberly:
Okay, that sounds great. We married then on Memorial Day of 2021. And, um, but at least it was a Monday. And the next day we all went back to work, right?
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
And,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
kimberly:
you know, did our thing, closed out the school year. And around June 16th, Brian received a work email that tripped him up. And, um, He was hyper fixating on it more than I think I knew. He told me that it was troubling him, but I don’t think he shared the truth with me about how deeply it was troubling him. It was
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
kimberly:
just a glitch at work, but at that point in his mind, glitches became problems and not a fixable situation, but that was because there’s all these other things going on. that I wasn’t aware of. Because while we dated, we talked about everybody else’s mental health problems.
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm
kimberly:
Everybody else’s. You name them, we talked about them. And it would have been a prime time for him to share with me, oh hey, by the way, I’ve had some mental health struggles myself. And here’s where I am right now on that journey. That would have been a wise thing to do. But he didn’t. And I think that it was because of stigma. And his family could have also encouraged him to do that, but they didn’t do that. And they didn’t even like whisper to me, hey, Kimberly, did you talk to Brian about his mental health? No one. So when I found out he was suicidal in July, six weeks after we married, it was a shock to me.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
kimberly:
Like, what do you mean? I,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
what? What is going on? Like, I know that you were having struggles with work, What? And so that’s when all the things came out that he had been carrying around with him. And I think people who struggle with mental health or and struggle with suicide ideation, it’s such a guilt zone that
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
kimberly:
communicating about it, especially as a person of faith, makes you feel uncomfortable because he got to the point where he believed that God did not love him. He got to the point where he believed that his brain was being attacked by demons. He
Mark Massaro:
Mm.
kimberly:
got to the point where even going to church, he would look around and church is dark, all right? We go to a large church. It’s dark in there. No one’s watching you, but he was pretty sure people were.
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
kimberly:
They weren’t, they weren’t watching you, but that’s how his brain was working at that time. And so we spent the rest of July in and out of therapy, August in and out of therapy, September in and out of therapy. And then he finally passed in October on the 10th on a Sunday
Mark Massaro:
Wow.
kimberly:
while he was under hospital care.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
wow.
kimberly:
And he decided he was just gonna run away from the hospital.
Mark Massaro:
Like literally or you mean like mentally?
kimberly:
Literally. Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
Okay, okay.
kimberly:
Yeah, yeah. They were out for a therapy walk, and now I’m pretty confident they don’t do that anymore.
Mark Massaro:
Oh wow.
kimberly:
But they had left the hospital building, walked like a sidewalk in a neighborhood, and he took off. And he did not come back.
Mark Massaro:
Wow.
kimberly:
So
Mark Massaro:
and
kimberly:
where everybody else gets to like, you know, be in this honeymoon phase, that’s, I missed that. I had six weeks of that. The rest was not a honeymoon. It was thrown into trauma and trying to figure out what is going on and then all the little things that go along with that.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
kimberly:
I’m gonna go to bed.
Mark Massaro:
Wow. And how did you, um,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Thanks for watching!
Mark Massaro:
how did you find out?
kimberly:
The hospital called me at 3 o’ 5 to tell me that he was missing, that he had gone off for a walk and he had run away and he had not come back and that they were looking for him. What the hospital didn’t tell me
Mark Massaro:
Ahem.
kimberly:
was that had happened a while ago and they were just now contacting me.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
So according to the police report, he was seen on a ring camera about 1 45 in the afternoon going up. somebody’s driveway. And so 305, 145, there’s a lot of time in there. And when I found him, it was because I jumped in the car and drove over to where the hospital was and I was looking in all the high places. I was looking at water towers, I was looking at trees, I was trying to find him. And I remember it was over by my daughter’s high school area. And I remember saying, Brian, you’ve got to tell me where you are right now. And I just drove and drove, and I found a bunch of squad cars. And I thought to myself, a bunch of squad cars together. They’re probably not having donuts. So I drove into that mess, and that’s where he was. And they said, when I got there, gee, how did you find us? My thought was, gee, why didn’t you call me?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
But I
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
think that’s the way it is. They didn’t want to make a phone call because it was based off of, um, like guesses, not really factual information at that time.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
And so I’m not, I’m not, it’s sad, but it’s not going to, you know, destroy my life that they didn’t call me.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm and so
kimberly:
It wouldn’t have changed anything.
Mark Massaro:
Right. Yeah, it definitely wouldn’t have and so For you, what were you like feeling in that moment?
kimberly:
Um, I believe shock would be the right word,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
but I also knew this was not my husband’s first attempt. He had been getting really good at this. He had several suicidal attempts while we were married. And so it was not a surprise to me. He did not want to die. He didn’t want to die at all. He just wanted to be free of the pain that he was carrying.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
And when I last physically saw him, it was a week before at a hospital, a different hospital. And we had been, he had said that he thought God didn’t love him anymore. And I talked to him about grace and how important it is to walk in grace and how good God’s grace is to us. And I remember saying to him, Brian, when is the last time you prayed? And he said, I’m. I don’t think God wants to hear from me.” And I’m like, well,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
that’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
kimberly:
not
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Ahem.
kimberly:
true. And so he did pray. And so my last time with him was really joyful.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm
kimberly:
It
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
was hard, but it was joyful. And so I know that day was not a day that God planned. It was not God’s will.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
But God can take our human choices that we make and somehow. make a good purpose out of it all.
Mark Massaro:
a
kimberly:
So
Mark Massaro:
good purpose out of it
kimberly:
the
Mark Massaro:
all.
kimberly:
home where Brian chose to die in their backyard, that was a family of faith. They go to my parents’ church.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
kimberly:
And my parents go to a large church as well, so it’s kind of random. But the woman there said that she was praying over him in the Spirit. And she said, God, just tell me his name. Tell me his name. And she said, God whispered to her that his name was Brian.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
And they just, I just feel like Brian was looking for peace and he found it.
Mark Massaro:
Mmm. Wow.
kimberly:
And so
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
kimberly:
I wish that it would not have gone that way. And there’s lots of other ways to find peace, but
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
that was the way that he chose for himself. And so. He’s happy,
Mark Massaro:
He’s
kimberly:
I believe,
Mark Massaro:
happy. Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
home in heaven,
Mark Massaro:
Absolutely.
kimberly:
and then the rest of it is for us to figure out here on earth. And that’s where the real journey begins
Mark Massaro:
Right?
kimberly:
for me.
Mark Massaro:
And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm
Mark Massaro:
before we move on to the next part of it, I want to just say this to the people in the audience that there is, and I don’t know why, there is a large stigma around people thinking that if someone commits suicide that they don’t get to go to heaven. There is nothing
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
in the Bible that says that. There is no unforgivable sin besides the denial of the Holy Spirit, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. So I can’t tell you how many widows I’ve had to tell in the past years, however just because he committed suicide, it doesn’t mean that he, there’s nothing in the Bible that says they don’t get to go to heaven. Of course, it’s not God’s will for our life, but it doesn’t mean, there’s nothing in the Bible that says that if you do that, you’re not going to heaven. And so I know that there’s a lot of people out there who’ve also dealt with this, and they
kimberly:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
have wrestled with that. And so I just kind of wanted to speak to the audience and address that and just say that like that is not an unforgivable sin. And it doesn’t mean that your spouse wasn’t saved. Mental illness is a real thing. People that are suffering, you know, well, there’s things I want to save it. I’m not going to for the sake of my wife’s privacy, but you know, there’s people that in their suffering, you know, don’t want to live any longer. Like they’re so sick of the fight and the struggle and things like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
that. And so there’s many reasons why somebody might want to end their life and also mental illness would be one of those things that would be, you know, God, like you said, God’s really full of grace and Jesus really died for all of our sins. And so,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
so anyways, I just wanted to address that. real quick in case anybody is thinking that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
or wondering that, because I don’t know where that came from, but there is this big belief that you automatically cancel out your salvation.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
And
kimberly:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
all of us, there’s a lot of us who, when we were first going through being widowed, the thought was contemplated like, I don’t want to live anymore. Now, I didn’t actually want to kill myself, but there was definitely a phase where I didn’t want to live anymore.
kimberly:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
And I don’t think that was a sin. I think that was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No.
Mark Massaro:
a broken heart and mental things going on in my head.
kimberly:
rate.
Mark Massaro:
So anyways, I just wanted to address that I’m sorry to interrupt you
kimberly:
Yeah, my dad
Mark Massaro:
so
kimberly:
said it well. He said, um… We were not ready for Brian to die, but God was ready to usher him home.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s good. I think
Mark Massaro:
yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
there’s somebody lots of people in the audience that need to hear that. That’s good
Mark Massaro:
Yes, yes.
kimberly:
And yeah, because that’s true for no matter how you lost your spouse.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
Um, you, even if you, even if they were on respite care or hospice or you knew it was bound to happen any day,
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
it’s still not really something you can prepare yourself for.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-mm.
kimberly:
And so you’re not ready. You’re just never not, you’re just never ready, but God in His
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Ahem.
kimberly:
goodness and His grace. and his faithfulness to us. He’s already got that home ready, prepared. Name is on the front door and there’s food in the fridge. Welcome to heaven.
Mark Massaro:
Yes. And also, we have to understand that, you know, as God knows all the hairs on our head and all that stuff, He knows everything about us. When Brian was born, the day he was born, God knew October 10th, 2021, I think you said 2021, right?
kimberly:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
That that was the day he was going home and that he is saved by grace also, just like all the rest of us that believe.
kimberly:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I have
Mark Massaro:
gosh,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a…
Mark Massaro:
what was the… I mean, it’s just like, I have so many questions.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I know,
Mark Massaro:
So I’m
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
me
Mark Massaro:
going
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
too.
Mark Massaro:
to start with the first one that is just pressing upon me that I feel like would have to be a haunting thought. Like, was it a struggle for you to feel like, you know, like, did you wrestle with that? Like maybe there was something you could have done or like all of us have wrestled with, oh, well, if I only would have done this, if I only would have done that, maybe this, maybe that. And I try to tell people. Like, no, like I just said, October 10th, 2021, God already knew that date for my wife. It was August 13th, 2020. That date was already decided when she was born, not decided, but you know what I mean? It was already known. But was there still like a part of you that was like haunted with like, oh, if I only would have done this or if I only would have done that, did you go through a lot of those struggles that we all, you know, kind of go through?
kimberly:
The only thought that I had about that was I wish I would have known sooner. I’m,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
you know, I think when you’re dating somebody, it’s important to be forthright.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm… Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
and even if it’s going to hurt you a little bit, even if it’s going to cause you to humble yourself. it’s better to do it while you’re dating than when you’re
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
kimberly:
married.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
yeah,
kimberly:
It just, come
Mark Massaro:
totally.
kimberly:
on, just, we’re too old for this game, right?
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
kimberly:
I like, oh, dating in your 50s is not, it is not fun. But
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
kimberly:
I wish he would have told me because both he and I, and I’m assuming you too, Michelle, we’ve been through suicide classes as teachers. You know, we always think, oh
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
my gosh, this is so good. It doesn’t apply to me, but thank you, I love. talked, hour done.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
So we had all, I know what I need to do. I’ve been through many hours of suicide training.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
But I never thought it would really apply to my life.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
And so when it did, like in July, when it realized, well, this is now your new life, I kinda had some ideas of what I could do to create a safe house. And so that’s what I tried to do. That was exhausting. I don’t
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh
kimberly:
know
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.
kimberly:
how we could have survived. years of that to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
be forthright. There was not a way that would have been sustainable without becoming Amish because
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
he was trying to figure out any way using anything. So the proactive things that one can do if you are living with someone who is going through suicide ideation, you need to remove ties. You need to remove ropes, all sorts of ropes, hoses. even electrical cords from the vacuum cleaners or any electrical cord whatsoever.
Mark Massaro:
Wow.
kimberly:
Shoelaces, belts, knives. We removed him. He had guns for hunting. We removed those and the bullets. Then I saw that he was looking for a gun online. What the heck? So then I figured out that I could go to the sheriff’s department and put a flag on him for that. And so I did as much as I could do. What he did not want me to do is talk about this.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right?
kimberly:
He didn’t want me to talk to people about this. He didn’t want my family to know. He didn’t want his friends to know how deep this was. It wasn’t just superficial, gee, I’m really struggling with a work issue. It was deeper. And then I think, I wish I would have known family history with mental health other than the family members that he shared. He never told me about his grandfather and how his grandfather was suicidal.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
kimberly:
He
Mark Massaro:
Mmm.
kimberly:
never shared that. And his grandfather and Brian, Brian and his grandfather died in a very similar way, in an eerily similar way. And I’m not sure if that was something Brian put together or… that it just was happening like that. But his last chicken scratching in a journal that he had at the hospital was just full of why, why. And then it said, Grandpa.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
And I showed that to my husband’s brother, and he just could not handle that information because he knew what that meant. I didn’t know what that meant,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
but he knew what that meant. And it was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
kimberly:
horrible. awful and his grandfather did not die by suicide. But he tried to, the same way Brian did. Instead, his grandpa was put into a mental health place for the rest of his life. And Brian was afraid that would happen to him. And that’s why he chose this out.
Mark Massaro:
Wow.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I have so many questions
kimberly:
I know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
because the way that you are widowed is so different than any other guests that we’ve ever had. So tell us about like those first few moments, few days. Did you ever were you ever angry? Like I don’t
kimberly:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
know what it would
kimberly:
yes.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
feel like, but I feel like if that’s the way Luke had gone out, I feel like I’d be angry at him. And I just I’m sure whatever you felt, our audience, there are people that can relate to that. So could you share what that’s like? Were you angry? What were those emotions like in the beginning?
kimberly:
shock, mostly just shock, and with a little bit of relief because I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
kimberly:
know where he is. So that was the saving grace. And I was not angry with him.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh wow.
kimberly:
I became angrier as time went on
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
and
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
kimberly:
new things were revealed and I learned new things and I became angrier with the dystopia within the family that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
kimberly:
started to arise. And I was mad because That was, that would have been something that had broken my husband’s heart. But here we are. This is the way it is. This is not okay. None of this is okay. But then I, I remember that. Satan is the Lord of Chaos. God is not. So where there is chaos around you, that is not from God. That is definitely Satan doing his best, best
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
work. And so to take that into my mind and to remember to put this before the throne of God was really important to me to be able to separate the lies that I was starting to try to tell myself. from the truth that God really has. And a real big one for me, post Brian’s death, that had nothing to do with his family, was that I’m abandoned. And I bet a lot of widows out there feel the same way. But that is, I’m adopted. And so that is also something that adopted children carry with them for the rest of their life. That feeling of being, that feeling of being abandoned. You gotta be careful because that wasn’t true. My birth mom loved me and she chose the best for me, even though she left me at the hospital, she left me at a good place. She chose for me something different because she knew that the present situation was not going to be sustainable.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
And so in that situation, I’ve always grown up learning to tell myself the truth about abandonment and I had to do the same thing. when Brian died, I was not abandoned. He didn’t abandon me. He had really big things he was going through and that’s it. He did not abandon me and God did not abandon me. That’s not what the word of God says. So I had to decide is God who he says he is and believe that instead of all the intrusive thoughts that we can put into our mind. And it’s really interesting because as you… Look at what intrusive thoughts are. I think as people of faith, we have them. We just don’t wanna talk.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm. Oh, that’s true. That’s definitely true. We all have Some degree of intrusive thoughts and that’s how Satan works
kimberly:
Oh yeah.
Mark Massaro:
I’ve definitely had the feelings many times in my life Like you’re not good enough to be Christian look at all these men around you look at how much better look at how much
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm
Mark Massaro:
more Faithful they are look at
kimberly:
Thank
Mark Massaro:
you.
kimberly:
you.
Mark Massaro:
Look at the sins you struggle with like you’re not worthy of God’s love and Gosh, it’s so easy to believe them. Sometimes, you know, you’re like,
kimberly:
I know.
Mark Massaro:
yeah, you’re right, you know But that’s like the analogy that, you know, as we stand before the throne of God, that Satan is the prosecutor. He’s the one accusing us. And he’s going to be right. Everything he accuses us of, he’s going to be right. And we’re just going to feel damned and shamed and all these things. And I just love this analogy. But then your attorney, Jesus, walks in and he says, Dad, he’s one of mine or she’s one of mine. And then he says, case dismissed, all is forgiven. And so when you think about that analogy, like you understand that Satan is going to launch attacks against you and they are of truth, but it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t take away God’s grace and what Jesus did for us. And
kimberly:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
so even though the lies, you know, they might have a lot of truth to them. I might not be worthy of God’s grace. I might not be worthy of God’s love, but thankfully God is more graceful than I can understand and because of what Jesus did I am forgiven and the prosecution doesn’t have a case against me because my
kimberly:
You’re
Mark Massaro:
attorney
kimberly:
right.
Mark Massaro:
is Jesus and But that is that is true Satan does always work like that and he wants you I mean his they say that Satan’s greatest accomplishment would be to get you to believe that he doesn’t exist. And so, you know, he is constantly trying to do that. He is constantly trying to fill your head with lies about you’re not worthy or I remember for a season, it was, now I’ve never felt this way after seeing what I saw Lacey go through and the experiences I had during that journey. I’ve never struggled with this ever again, but I did go through seasons of like, is this like real? Like, is my faith like real? Is God real?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
And now it’s like I’ve seen too much to question that. I know I’ve witnessed the miracles of God firsthand and
kimberly:
Absolutely.
Mark Massaro:
I’ve witnessed him speaking to me. I’ve felt it. I’ve seen incredible things that, some things I’ve never even heard of happening to anybody else that are just like undeniable. So thankfully I don’t struggle, but I know a lot of people struggle with that. Like, is God really real? Like, am I really like… spending all this time, like going to church and all this stuff, am I really believing something that’s real? So anyways.
kimberly:
And I guess my advice for other people in our situation would be to stand on the Word of God.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
Because that is actually when all the things are falling apart around you, and you don’t know which way to go. And there are so many decisions, but then everybody tells you, don’t make big decisions. Well, you have big decisions to make. So
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
thank you, not helpful.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm
kimberly:
You, one, stand on the Word of God. Two, surround yourself with people who can speak wisdom into your life, and not a lot of people. just a small handful of people
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
who can journey with you, who can speak wisdom into your life at that time and just support you.
Mark Massaro:
That’s great advice, yeah. That’s really
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So
Mark Massaro:
good advice. Michelle,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
going,
Mark Massaro:
go ahead.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
oh, I just want to go back to, so this all happens, you’re not angry, which is awesome. What was it like for you? Like, what did life feel like? You know, the shock you talked about, you’re not angry at him, but what was it like? Did you feel like? You know, as you’re, this is happening, you’re planning like a celebration of life or whatever, you know, comes next. Like what did life feel like for you in those first few days? You have, do you have
kimberly:
I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
kids?
kimberly:
did.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You have older
kimberly:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
kids,
kimberly:
I do.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right?
kimberly:
I do. Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
kimberly:
my children
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Just
kimberly:
are both
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
wondering
kimberly:
adults
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
what your support
kimberly:
and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
system is like and all of that.
kimberly:
Um,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Like.
kimberly:
I felt like I was a guest at my husband’s funeral.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh.
kimberly:
Um, and I don’t, I don’t. like that feeling. That’s how it felt. Mostly because we had just been married four months and 10 days before he died. And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
kimberly:
so… in the minds of some of the people in his family. I was not really his wife. I mean, it’s only four months and 10 days. That doesn’t count. Okay. So it
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s
kimberly:
was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
hard.
kimberly:
just, and so the funeral was basically planned by his brother and his brother’s wife. And I just was along for the ride.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s so hard, I’m sorry.
kimberly:
Mm-hmm. And. And that’s… That’s just that. There’s not a word to describe it. It’s just the way that is. And then the same token, I moved out of the home that we shared. I moved in when we married. We didn’t live together. So I was only in that home for four months and 10 days. And so to some people in the family, that’s not my home. to some people in that family. The fact that we shared a budget and finances, those aren’t my finances.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh wow.
kimberly:
So it got really messy and that’s what made me mad at Brian. I would always
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
kimberly:
tell him, your family is screwed up. And like he’s dead, but you know what? I’m yelling at him, your honor, your family
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
is driving me crazy and they’re screwed up. Can you do anything about this? Can you go,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
kimberly:
Brian, hello? You’re right there. Go tell Jesus, God fix this. God fix
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
this.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
This is not okay. And so that was the, that there was the hardest part of the journey.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh my
kimberly:
But
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
goodness.
kimberly:
I have figured that out by remembering that they are hurting,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
they are grieving. Everybody grieves differently and to extend
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
grace to them. But also my boundaries are very high and I choose to not communicate.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
kimberly:
I’m.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, it would be hard. It would be hard to communicate after going through something like that and especially
kimberly:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
You know cuz it’s not like you guys and even if you were that’s fun But it’s not like you guys were only together for four months
kimberly:
No, right.
Mark Massaro:
Like you were
kimberly:
Well,
Mark Massaro:
together for two
kimberly:
right.
Mark Massaro:
years then
kimberly:
Yep.
Mark Massaro:
got married Yeah,
kimberly:
So
Mark Massaro:
that’s
kimberly:
it was, yeah, and then in order to make the family feel like I was not, like the thought was, oh my God, she’s gonna run away with all the money. That’s why she married him. She’s, you know, Latina. She probably has no, all these weird not
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
kimberly:
true thoughts were going on.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
And so there’s a little bit of racism involved
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh wow.
kimberly:
and that’s just the way it is. And so in order to like have them back to like call off the dogs, um, I. We had to go, I said, okay, well, fine, he’s dead. Let’s change the will. Here you go, here’s the house.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh wow.
kimberly:
Okay, fine. You want, you want, okay, no, you, I know that your dad had different monies for you, but you want this money? Okay, there you go. So we split things up, and that was to be able to create a space where they no longer could say, oh. We have the money.
Mark Massaro:
Well…
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So you have
kimberly:
So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that in addition to everything
kimberly:
in addition,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
else, because I’m
kimberly:
it
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thinking
kimberly:
was a
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
about,
kimberly:
mess.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’ve almost been married four months, like in 10 days, it’ll be four months.
kimberly:
Uh huh.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And I can’t imagine, like then that’s not considered marriage. I’m like,
kimberly:
Right.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it’s marriage. Like you’re married, you’re committed. Like.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, God
kimberly:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
considers a marriage, you know.
kimberly:
It got us. And so guess what? So do the courts. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
kimberly:
but I just I didn’t feel like going through all this with Brian.
kimberly:
It would have exacerbated the grief. It would not have made anything better. It would have made everything worse. And I just could not do that to my soul. And I couldn’t do that to Brian. So I was willing to. do what I needed to do to be able to. create boundaries and develop my own journey apart from them.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right, so you moved out of the house and then how did you continue? Like you’re so positive and so full of life and joy. How did you get to that place? Like you have what I feel like the audience wants. Can you share with us, like how did you go in this journey? You’re how far out now from when he passed away?
kimberly:
It’ll be two years in this coming October.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay, so you’re still fairly new in this. Like, how did you get to this place to where you are now where you can talk about this? And I see you doing similarly what we do, like you’re online trying to inspire widows and help. And I see a lot of like suicide awareness. You do a lot of things like that. How did you get from there to where you are here? Joyful, peaceful, trying to help other people. Can you share us like a little bit of along the journey? How did you get here?
kimberly:
God still has a plan and that’s the only thing that I had to keep in mind. And so trying to figure out, like if you look at my journals and not my hair, if you look at my journals, you will see that that’s my overall theme is, God, you know, I’m just, I just, here’s the story, here am I, what do you want me to do? What do you want me to do? It’s Brian’s story. And I think, It’s Brian’s hope. Brian would hope that this doesn’t happen to anybody else. And so, because he didn’t want it to happen to him, he didn’t, he was not okay with this happening to him. He was very distraught that it was happening, which is why I think he felt like he was being attacked by a demon. And I’m not saying that wasn’t true. I’m just saying, I don’t know about that part for
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
you. So I know that God still has a plan, and that’s how I move forward. God still has a plan. I wake up every day and say, God still has a plan. And I actually don’t need to really know what that is today.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
I just need to walk forward in faith today. I need to go outside my home and pick up my manna for the day,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
and use it, and then pick up my manna for the next day. And I think that’s how I’m operating right now on a still like a day by day basis.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
Case in point, my mother is a planner, my sister is a planner, and all three of us were together for the course of two weeks recently for my daughter’s graduation. And they’re like trying to plan everything. I’m like, oh, back out, back
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hehehe
kimberly:
out. Kimberly, Kimberly plans one day. That’s all I can do. But at the same time, I’m a teacher and teachers have to plan
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
everything out. And that’s what saved me was my career.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
kimberly:
I know
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
that everybody leaving the teaching field, like cats being chased by wolves right now, like bye, so long, this whole thing of educating, good luck. There’s not gonna be any educators in 10 years to teach your children because we’re all leaving. But that is still the same thing that saved me
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Hmm.
kimberly:
because where I did not know, I’d have no concept of time. I don’t know. really, I had no concept of time because what is time? What happened? It was four months and ten days. How did this happen?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
kimberly:
So like my time frame is shot and but teaching made me have to go okay at 9 15 I need to do this
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
and at 11 09 I need to do this and at
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
3 15 the kids go home.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yay. Ha ha ha.
Mark Massaro:
Hehehe
kimberly:
But that is what helped regulate me again. because I did not understand what was going on. I couldn’t figure out how did this happen? Where did all the time, what happened to time? Where is God? Where is heaven? Like all these little things started go teaching, save me. And I’m very thankful for that. But my mother and my sister still are good planners and I’m a good planner just one day at a time. That’s pretty good.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
That’s fine.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right. And did you
kimberly:
So.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
have any certain verses or songs or things that helped you through this time?
kimberly:
Yes, I love Jen Johnson from Bethel Music, probably
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Okay.
kimberly:
because I can sing her better, her alto, and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
I get along very well. And she has a lot of beautiful songs and one she talks about, you know, you hold me completely in the palm of your hand and I am everything to you. and you are everything to me. And so I just played those lots of songs from Jen Johnson, from Elevation,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm, yeah.
kimberly:
Buffalo Music, and Maverick City
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
kimberly:
on repeat
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good.
kimberly:
and repeat. But then, I don’t know if your listeners remember that Steven Curtis Chapman’s daughter died,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
kimberly:
Maria,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I remember that.
kimberly:
moons and moons ago,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
and he had a CD out called Beauty Will Rise.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
And that is his CD about going through the grief journey. Right?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
with his daughter’s death, full of trauma as well. And so I would listen to that CD
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
kimberly:
over and over and over and over because it takes you through the questioning and it takes you through the wondering, God, do you still love me?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
Do you still see me? What is happening? Why did this go down? But
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
kimberly:
at the end, he talks about how spring is coming
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
and beauty does. rise. It does. Creation shows us that every time. If you look at the fires, you know my skies here in Minnesota have been laden with smoke from the fires up north in Minnesota and in Canada. And that’s devastation, right? But life is sometimes like that. But beauty still will rise from a devastation. It’s not going to look like how you thought it would. You’re not going to be who you thought you were going to be. and you have to stop and pause and intentionally walk forward.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm,
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
With,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s good.
kimberly:
not randomly, I like random steps are not my thing. And some people are like, well, you just have to, you just have to walk forward and take your first step. And a lot of people, you know, our paces and our steps are different. So you can’t judge somebody else’s journey and grief as they walk forward. The pace is different, their step width is different. And for me, there’s days when only, my only width was a pinky toe at the beginning. Like, I can walk as far as my pinky toe can go, and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
it’s not gonna go very far. But eventually, you start walking farther and farther, which is why I think it’s important to journal and to go back, because then you can see God’s faithfulness.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
kimberly:
When you wonder where God was,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yup.
kimberly:
you can go back into your journal, and you can see. and claim God’s faithfulness over your life. Because
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
as the song says, all my life you have been faithful. All my life you have been so, so good. And even in this destruction, God, I still believe you’re good. And I don’t know how, but I believe it. And so I believe that goodness will come from this because he says goodness and mercy will follow us
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
kimberly:
all the days of our lives if we surrender our life and our plan to him. So that’s kind of it. That’s kind of where I sit
Mark Massaro:
That’s really
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
kimberly:
in
Mark Massaro:
great.
kimberly:
that space.
Mark Massaro:
And it’s such a reminder of how important perspective is
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
because people can walk through the same journeys and take it very differently. Now, obviously we all have different life experiences and things that… give us the abilities to cope with problems or whatever. And so some people have more life experience than others and whatever, but it is such a testimony of how your perspective can bring healing. And so, like Michelle and I, we essentially journaled through this podcast.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
So we can reflect back on our journey and how far we’ve come and different things like that. And I think that’s good because as we go back, we will see God’s faithfulness. And even though we can’t see it right now, I always like to illustrate that we are looking at our life in a very linear, we can only see what’s right in front of us, but God sees the whole line from above, from a different dimension. And He sees the beginning, the middle, the end, and all that stuff. And so I think perspective is an incredibly important thing to have and to constantly be trying to talk yourself into having a positive perspective. And even when we don’t feel that. As we all go through grief, I think it’s important to come back to a place of that. Yeah, that’s really, I think that’s just a good reminder. So I think that it is your perspective that has allowed you to see God’s grace
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm,
Mark Massaro:
and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah.
Mark Massaro:
to see His goodness even though. And I remember, gosh, what I went through with Lacey was insanely hard. And I remember the only thing that I had to hold on to… was no matter what Satan throws at me, he can’t take away my salvation. And that was the only thing I had to hold onto is because everything around me was so dark and ugly and sad and terrible and extremely frightening. And I was just filled with anxiety and panic attack and fears and the only thing that I could hold onto some days was my salvation is untouchable. And, but that helped me get through that day or through that hour or through that minute. whatever it was. And so I think that’s really great that you’ve found that perspective. And it is such a testimony of what God can do with our hearts. And another interesting thing you said, you mentioned the forest fires and things like that. Well, fire promotes regrowth and I know that’s what you were getting at. So a lot of times these big, huge old trees, when they burn, well now there’s enough sunlight for these new trees to grow and keep the forest sustained. Forest fires are seemingly to us so devastating, it allows the forest to continue being a forest. If it wasn’t that, all the new trees
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Thanks
Mark Massaro:
would
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
for
Mark Massaro:
choke
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
watching!
Mark Massaro:
out and there wouldn’t be forests for long. So those things are also important. And sometimes our life can be like an illustration of that, that sometimes we have to go through really difficult things to build our character, to build our faith. And God allows us to go through things, I believe, sometimes to make us more like Christ and to bring us more into His light and give us these perspectives of His goodness. Sometimes that’s hard to accept when you’re just seeing what’s right in front of you, but when God sees the big picture and He knows what it’s going to do for you in the long run. It can be very, very powerful. I’m sorry to take it away, Michelle, for so long, but what
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
No, it’s
Mark Massaro:
are
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
good.
Mark Massaro:
some more questions you have? Or
kimberly:
And
Mark Massaro:
I’m sorry, go ahead, yeah.
kimberly:
just for like back to the forest fire allegory, even within the ashes and the ashes of the forest fire, but the ashes of our lives, the ashes that we face, the ashes that I carry, right? Because
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
my husband was cremated. Even from ashes, there are chemical properties that God has already put in there for regrowth
Mark Massaro:
Yep,
kimberly:
within the ashes.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
absolutely. They’re filled with minerals.
kimberly:
I know, isn’t that great? Like,
Mark Massaro:
It is, yeah.
kimberly:
I feel like I just cling onto that science like that.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
kimberly:
Because God is a great, marvelous scientist. Well done, God. Thank
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
kimberly:
you.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm
Mark Massaro:
no
kimberly:
I
Mark Massaro:
kidding.
kimberly:
needed that.
Mark Massaro:
Wow.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, that’s great. So what do you think is the most challenging thing about being widowed?
kimberly:
probably just not having somebody to talk to.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
kimberly:
Like, you had a bad day, you had a good day.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
You like swapping stories with Brian.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
kimberly:
Because we didn’t work in the same school. So like I miss his stories.
Mark Massaro:
Hehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
I miss the stories about the wacky-doodle situations.
Mark Massaro:
Hehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, I’m sure.
kimberly:
And I shouldn’t cry about it because some of them were not that funny, but.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Thanks for watching!
Mark Massaro:
hehe
kimberly:
But I do, I miss those like, oh, he, especially because it was during COVID. So COVID played a huge role in his, in his mental health too.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah.
kimberly:
Because he had hard COVID, and with pneumonia. And then as a leader of the school, having to start and stop school seven
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
times. And then, and then the staff was like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? And Brian’s like, oh my gosh, I don’t know, because
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
this is the first time I’ve ever been a principal during a pandemic.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
Right. And so like, a lot of people in education, behind the scenes, it was not that grace. It was not allowed extending of grace. It was hard for teachers, it was hard for him. And so, you know, just the silly stories of the parents during that time,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm
kimberly:
what the antics of students over Zoom. And
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
then I was teaching middle school, you know, over Zoom and I was like, oh. Lord have mercy. So we had a lot of stories. We had a lot of fun. Our first date was the day that George Floyd died in our city. And so we married him for a variety of reasons but one was his compassion for people of other cultures and how he tried to see the world through their eyes.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
That’s so important to me. To be like aware and understanding and want to know more. And so You know, we went through the George Floyd stuff. We went through the lockdowns because of George Floyd. We went through the riots. We went through a lot. And COVID and all the stuff. We had a lot to talk about. I miss
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right,
kimberly:
talking to now.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
right, yeah. What,
Mark Massaro:
and think we can all relate to that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes, definitely.
kimberly:
Thank you.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
What advice would you give to a brand new baby widow? Like they’re brand new in this journey, maybe a month, two months out.
kimberly:
Um, the adopter would be one of my first ones
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
kimberly:
because
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
see a doctor.
kimberly:
grief affects your whole body.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm, that’s good.
kimberly:
It affects everything. It affects how you sleep.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yep.
kimberly:
It affects your eating and your digestion. It affects how your heart is working because it’s actually working over time. And there have been times even recently where I felt like my heart was going to just fly out of my body. Um, that you. Seeing a doctor and talking about that with them and letting them know that you’re gonna be coming back for some regular visits, just not for like talk therapy, but just for physical, like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s good.
kimberly:
am I okay? Here’s what’s going on, I need to be okay. You will feel strange aches and pains
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
because your body feels it all,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yep.
kimberly:
okay? That’s okay, that’s okay. Go to the doctor and talk about that with them. and they will have so much compassion for you and understand. I had a hard time sleeping initially,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
and so I went to a psychotherapist,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
and they gave me what they hoped would have been a great medicine to help me stop the nightmares, but that really wasn’t helpful, and it cost way too much money for those visits, even with my… loan very good insurance.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm
kimberly:
So that was a firm no, but there’s other things that you can do. For example, GriefShare is something that is around the entire United
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
kimberly:
States and all you have to do is go into GriefShare, plug in your five-digit zip code and up will come a list of all sorts of places where you can go to GriefShare classes and that was really helpful
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
getting plugged in so that you know you’re not alone because
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes,
kimberly:
you’re not alone.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yes, that’s
kimberly:
and you
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
huge.
kimberly:
will feel alone, you’ll feel like you’re the only one. And so if you don’t get out of the house and go pick up your own manna for the day, you’re gonna stay inside and you’re gonna isolate yourself and you’re going to believe that you’re the only one who’s had to do this, you’re the only one sobbing today.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
But then you meet all these other people who are also struggling and it’s like the friendship of people that you wish you didn’t have to make this way, but you’re thankful that you did.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. It’s great advice.
Mark Massaro:
That’s really good advice. And I’ve never heard anybody give the advice to see the doctor. I think that’s great advice because I would love to know the percentage of widows, myself included, Michelle included, that have Googled, am I having a heart attack?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm, oh yeah.
Mark Massaro:
Like, oh my gosh, I feel like everybody’s Googled that who’s been through this, cause the anxiety and… Gosh, it just feels like you’re having a heart attack or that you’re going to and it’s, and then you get worried about it and then the anxiety spikes even higher and then you feel like you’re even more gonna have a heart attack. And so, Michelle, have you Googled symptoms before?
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah, like everything, you know that? Like every
Mark Massaro:
I know.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
little thing. I went through major anxiety. So, you know, Luke actually died of a blood clot. I thought I was having a blood clot. I still
kimberly:
Yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
struggle with that because I have like weird calf pain. Like there’s just so many things that going to a doctor is good advice because you feel like I felt like I was dying and all of these things. your body’s all going crazy and I didn’t sleep. I still don’t sleep. Well, I’m still trying to find a good way to sleep, but yeah, I think that’s great advice to go see a doctor and um,
kimberly:
Mm hmm. you know, couples, whether it be, you know, like longevity couples, right, that one dies and the next dies right after
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
them, because they die with a broken heart. And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
It’s
kimberly:
that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
true.
kimberly:
is really true. And you can see that with Carrie Fisher and her death, and then how her mom died after her
Mark Massaro:
That’s
kimberly:
immediately.
Mark Massaro:
right.
kimberly:
Because your heart is working so hard. God bless it. Go see the doctor.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm. That is
Mark Massaro:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really,
Mark Massaro:
that’s true.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really great advice. So, kind of want to change subjects a little bit. You are a fun, beautiful, boisterous woman. What are your thoughts about dating again?
kimberly:
I would rather live inside the hairy armpit of a baboon.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, okay, so you do not want to dating. Okay, I love your answer. It is honest, it is true, it is, you’re probably gonna relate to people out there who are like, yeah, I don’t wanna date again.
kimberly:
I just, oh, it just makes me anxious, because I personally have a lot of just inner healing to do first before I even subject any human to that.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
It’s not out of the ballpark. I just don’t, I’m
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
there.
kimberly:
just not there yet,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
but I really celebrate my friends who are. And
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
so in our widow group, there are… widows who are who have married, one who’s getting married, one who’s seriously dating, you know, and I love that for them. I
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
love that. I love you for that journey, too. I’m like, yeah, go get them, girl. Go
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm
kimberly:
get them. Come
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I
kimberly:
on
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
did
kimberly:
now. Come
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
get
kimberly:
on.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
him.
Mark Massaro:
Hehehe
kimberly:
Right. And I love that. And I feel like I’m just really good at cheerleading for my friends right now. But I’m still afraid sometimes that like everybody around me is going to die.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
And so I feel like once I can, once I can like maybe break through some of that, my anxiety about
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
everybody around me that I love is going to die, maybe that will help. But also I’m hoping to run away, to go home to Costa Rica
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh.
kimberly:
for one month. I don’t want to visit my family there. I have a lot of family.
Mark Massaro:
Hehehe.
kimberly:
My birth grandparents had 22 children
Mark Massaro:
Oh my gosh.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh my goodness. You have a lot.
kimberly:
because they were good Catholics and had no TV.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m sorry.
kimberly:
And so, and then funny little side note, my grandfather also dated my grandmother’s sister and had three other children. So I have a lot of family
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
there, right? But that’s not what I want to do. I want to go online. You can, like I found different places where you can work for eco lodges for free. And just for, you work for free, you get food and lodging. And I found some along the coastline
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mmm.
kimberly:
of my home country. That’s what I want to do.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
kimberly:
I want to do like an eat, pray, love.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
And then I feel like after I do my eat, pray, love experience, whatever that might mean, wherever that might be, I think I’ll be okay.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah,
Mark Massaro:
Hmm,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I
Mark Massaro:
that’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
love
Mark Massaro:
awesome.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it. What
Mark Massaro:
What
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a great
Mark Massaro:
good
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
answer.
Mark Massaro:
self-awareness
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah, I love
Mark Massaro:
and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
it.
Mark Massaro:
a unique answer. And I’m sure that’s refreshing for a lot of people to hear because, you know, like you’ve said, we all grieve differently. And for me, it has been an incredible blessing to my life to find somebody else to have Tina to talk to when I’m feeling
kimberly:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
grief or when I’m feeling sad
kimberly:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
or, you know, to have that companionship again. But I know we don’t all fire the same way. You know, we don’t all have the same heart and desires and things like that. And so this is a good, um, you know, thing for the audience to hear that, like there’s nothing wrong just because, you know, Michelle and I are like big believers in finding our happiness again. And we’ve promoted that and talked about it and there’s nothing wrong with that, but there’s also nothing wrong if you’d rather live in a baboons armpit. Like
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
that, you know what I mean? Like that’s awesome. That’s good self awareness.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh, right.
Mark Massaro:
And, um, Like that’s just great and there’s nothing wrong with that. And I think that’s great for a lot of people to hear that because they might hear Michelle and I and think like, gosh, what’s wrong with me? How are
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
they able to like fall in love again? I could never do that or whatever. And even though we’ve talked a lot about that, like, if you don’t feel that way, that’s okay. This is a great example of somebody who doesn’t feel that way and that’s awesome. So thanks for sharing that. I think that’ll be really powerful for a lot of people to hear.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yeah.
kimberly:
And there’s also like, like. If that is your journey that you would like to start dating, and maybe one day that’ll be my journey, you really need to figure out your finances. I like finances. I don’t want this to sound weird. I like money. I like money organized. I like knowing where the money is. I have a list of all the things of my beneficiaries, and I know where I’m ready. I have a book for my kids of what to do when I die.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Wow.
Mark Massaro:
Oh wow.
kimberly:
All the passwords, all my bills.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s awesome.
Mark Massaro:
That’s
kimberly:
Everything
Mark Massaro:
really smart.
kimberly:
would probably, right? I have all that ready for them. But when you remarry, there are some things that your children will not get if you remarry. And so you want to make sure that everything financially is lined up for that too.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
kimberly:
If you remarry, will your kids miss out on some of the beneficiaries and the monies that you had set aside for them? Because spousal rights are real. And so. if you have a new spouse that does push out your kids on some things. So you want to sit down with a financial advisor to know where your money is, what it looks like, what can be lost if I remarry. And is that is that going to be worth it? Because I know for a friend of mine who is much older than us, she’s late 70s with her VA. Her husband was in the military. It is not worth it for her to remarry. she will lose a lot.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm
kimberly:
So she’s just chosen to never marry.
Mark Massaro:
Wow.
kimberly:
But she was engaged, but that’s when she figured out she couldn’t do it. She had to break her engagement like 20 years ago
Mark Massaro:
Wow.
kimberly:
to do that. I know, so like little things you don’t think about because usually like, oh, huh, look at that guy drinking coffee, he’s cute. And maybe that’s true. But first get all your financial things, I would say my advice. Get all your financial things intact. Have good conversations with your financial consultants. Know where your money is. Have a plan and then begin your new journey.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Good advice.
kimberly:
That’s just my small idea.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You’re full of good advice. So I’ve seen you a lot on social media. I’m sure people are going to want to follow you maybe reach out to you. Where can they find you or how can they get in touch with you?
kimberly:
Well, welcome to threads.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh yeah, we just started that, that’s fun.
kimberly:
But I usually just use my Instagram at hopefully Kimberly, hopefully underscore Kimberly, because I just want to be a merchant of hope. That is something that I picked up from my friend, Jimmy Casas, who was an educator, who writes lots of education books. And he always he asked me to write in his book about being a merchant of hope. And I did. But now that’s
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
nice.
kimberly:
stuck. So and I just feel like if you are a merchant of hope. I’m not here to sell you anything. I’m not here to sell you next steps to being a brand new widow. Step one. I’m just here to talk about hope and hope can be found first in Christ Jesus and in the Word of God. And then just looking for hope every day. There’s so much beauty around you that if you’re, hmm, you could miss it easily because you’re thinking that God is going to bring it about a certain way, but he brought it But you missed it.
Mark Massaro:
Hmm.
kimberly:
You missed it. And I think that’s true about blessings. And I think that’s true about hope. So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
And
kimberly:
just look for hope every day.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
if we have people in the audience, like we had someone the other day reach out to you, who is also a widowed by suicide, would you be open to talking to them?
kimberly:
Oh yes, absolutely, because it is a club, it is a club that, you know, widowhood is one club.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right, and this is.
kimberly:
Then, you know, the choice, the ways that our spouses die it puts us in a little
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Like
kimberly:
subgroup.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sub-clubs,
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
yeah. Uh-huh.
kimberly:
Because the way that your spouse has died, you have your own little subgroup too.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
And that’s okay, you can speak differently into those things for the people that, that need to hear it, so.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right, well I know I
Mark Massaro:
No,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really…
Mark Massaro:
that’s exactly right. That’s that’s why we were that’s why we were trying to have guests with different stories different losses and things like that because Michelle and I are real-world experience is cancer and so even somebody that lost their husband suddenly and tragically it’s going to be a very different journey that they’ve been on than us. And so, you know, we just like to get a lot of different perspectives and things like that. So thank you. Thanks for
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes,
Mark Massaro:
being
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
thanks
Mark Massaro:
a guest
kimberly:
Oh sure,
Mark Massaro:
with us today.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
for being
kimberly:
oh sure,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so willing
kimberly:
it was
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to
kimberly:
wonderful.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
do that. Mark, did you have any other questions?
Mark Massaro:
Wow. I mean, there’s so many things like rattling around
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm.
Mark Massaro:
in my brain and it’s just, it’s just something that I, um, so don’t understand. It was so different for
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
me. And you know, I mean, Michelle and I had like the pre-grief,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
um,
kimberly:
Hmm?
Mark Massaro:
stuff like that. And,
kimberly:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
and so that that’s a very real thing. You know,
kimberly:
Oh
Mark Massaro:
I
kimberly:
yeah.
Mark Massaro:
had to accept that my wife was dying before she died. I had to make funeral arrangements before she was gone. And that’s very different than what a lot of other people, um, you know, went through and stuff like that. And so, no, I mean, I don’t have any other particular questions. I’m just thankful for you sharing your story.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Yes.
Mark Massaro:
And I know that had to be, that has to be hard sometimes. And I do have a question. Do you feel like, you know, so for example, if I tell somebody I lost my wife to cancer, there’s automatically this like, oh, I’m so sorry. Like, Do you feel like people get weird around you or like look at you strangely when you say they lost their spouse to suicide? Or you know what I mean, you lost your spouse.
kimberly:
Yeah, one person told me that, well, because I don’t really get any, I don’t know if the word is messages, I don’t dream about my husband. I don’t really like, I’m not that kind of person who goes, oh, gee, there’s a carnal. That must be Brian.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm.
kimberly:
Somehow my husband turned into a bird. I don’t know. I’m not that kind of person. And so when I shared that with someone, they said, oh, that could be because he’s in hell. I’m
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Ah,
kimberly:
like,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that
kimberly:
that
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
is horrible.
kimberly:
also could not be it. That’s probably not it. But you know, I’m not gonna blur it out to them. You know, what a horrible, disrespectful
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Oh,
kimberly:
thing to say. But.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s
Mark Massaro:
Cheers!
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
one that’s like probably the worst comment I’ve ever heard said to somebody
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
kimberly:
Oh yeah, I’ve heard that from people more than once. So that’s why I talk about it a lot is because I just don’t want people to think that is true because that is hurtful. And in the heart of somebody else who is walking through this journey, that could be the one thing that will trip them up and not allow them to heal.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Right?
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
kimberly:
So that’s why I talk about it. Go get my device, I’ll log you in.
Mark Massaro:
And also, like, even if you think that, you don’t say that out loud. You know, I mean,
kimberly:
Karen.
Mark Massaro:
that’s just like common decency. Like, you don’t say that out loud. I mean, we’ve heard some wild things that people have said.
kimberly:
Yeah.
Mark Massaro:
You know, I understand what you’re going through. My dog just died. You know, things like
kimberly:
You’re
Mark Massaro:
that.
kimberly:
right.
Mark Massaro:
Like, those are like ridiculous things, but even those, you keep that to yourself. But, um, yeah, to, I can’t even wrap my brain around what would make somebody think that that’s okay to say.
kimberly:
I think it’s just because they want to, they, careful when you hold it, they want to. I don’t know if there’s a really good reason why they would do that. I think that they just want to say something but then The words get tangled up and out comes something. They probably did not mean to say like those are inside thoughts
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Keep those
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
I’m sorry.
Mark Massaro:
inside.
kimberly:
You know
Mark Massaro:
Yeah.
kimberly:
like at school I teach my autistic students, right and I’m they always are blurting things that they should not be burning and I always reminding them, Oh honey, that’s an insight that that’s an insight.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
You
kimberly:
So.
Mark Massaro:
Mm-hmm. That’s some
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
should
Mark Massaro:
good verbiage.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
say
Mark Massaro:
Inside
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that.
kimberly:
Hehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s really,
Mark Massaro:
thoughts, yeah.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really good verbiage. That’s awesome. Thank you for
kimberly:
Yeah,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
sharing. This has been
kimberly:
so.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
so eye opening and so it’s going to be good for so many people. I hope that they really take you up on reaching out to you because I believe you can help them in ways that we never could. So thank you for being a guest and being willing
kimberly:
Well,
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
to be open.
kimberly:
you’re more than welcome. It’s been so much fun. I feel like we were just old friends sitting around a campfire
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Exactly.
Mark Massaro:
Hehehe
kimberly:
just sharing our
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
That’s our
kimberly:
souls.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
hope. Yeah, that’s our hope with this is that we’re just, yeah, friends talking about life. So Mark,
kimberly:
Hehehe
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
would you like to pray us out?
Mark Massaro:
Yeah, absolutely. Lord, I’d like to thank you so much for this ministry that you’ve given us that is somehow through your means being able to help people. And I thank you so much for Kimberly’s story and her willingness to share it and the perspective that you’ve given her on this life and on this journey. I pray that she would reach many people through her ministry and that people would feel courageous enough to reach out to her who need help. I pray that you would help her through this season and that you would also bless her with the ability to go to that trip to Costa Rica and that it would be a huge blessing
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
on her life and provide lots of healing and what she needs. And I’d just like to pray, Lord, for all of those who have lost a spouse in any way, but today in particular, anybody who’s lost their spouse to suicide, I pray that Kimberly’s words would have been helpful to them and insightful and would provide them. the abilities to move forward into the next chapter of their life and to not feel guilt and to not feel shame or embarrassment and also to protect their hearts from anybody saying something stupid.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Mm-hmm.
Mark Massaro:
And Lord, I’d just like to again just thank you so much for this ministry. It’s such a blessing that you’ve allowed us the trust to help this community of people. And we ask all these things and praise your name in Jesus’ name, amen.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
Amen. Well, if you liked this podcast, give it a little thing. Five
Mark Massaro:
Ping!
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
stars being on Apple podcasts, wherever you listen. Spotify has it too. I’ve noticed that we have
kimberly:
Oh!
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
a 4.9 on Spotify and on Apple podcasts. So you can
Mark Massaro:
BOOM
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
give it some five stars. You can like write a little nice thing. Forgot to tell you, we got another nice one the other day on Apple podcasts.
kimberly:
I’m so excited
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So
Mark Massaro:
Nice!
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that’s great. We
kimberly:
to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
really
kimberly:
be
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
appreciate
kimberly:
here.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that. And if you have been blessed by this ministry and want to help us out, as we’ve mentioned the last couple episodes, Widowgoals, which is my nonprofit, we are now under that. And Widowgoals not only provides podcasts and social media support, we also provide grief recovery support groups and scholarships for widows. as well as local and hopefully someday national events.
kimberly:
I’m going
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
So
kimberly:
to
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
if
kimberly:
go
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you’ve
kimberly:
ahead
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
been blessed
kimberly:
and
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
by this
kimberly:
start
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
ministry,
kimberly:
the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
there
kimberly:
presentation.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
is a link in the
kimberly:
So
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
show
kimberly:
I’m going
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
notes
kimberly:
to start
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
that
kimberly:
with
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
you
kimberly:
the
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
can
kimberly:
presentation.
Michelle Bader Ebersole:
give to the nonprofit. So it is a tax write-off as well. So thank you guys so much for listening. If you would like to be a guest, you can email us at widowedtosoon at widogoles.org. Reach out to us on Instagram, Facebook, all the places. So. Thanks again for being here, Kimberly, and thanks everybody for listening and we’ll see you next time.
Mark Massaro:
Thank you, God bless.
